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What OEM is the best off the rack WITHOUT being fitted?


Buffly

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2 hours ago, Middler said:

+1, best answer. All the OEMs know what configurations will fit the most buyers, one isn’t better than another. Unless you’re under 5’7” or over 6’2”, unusual wrist to floor measurements, or disabled - off the rack with the right flex will probably be fine. Any big box store with a launch monitor can get your flex right, or make a very good guess by your age and (honest) driver distance. Length and lie aren’t as critical for most.

I unfortunately am 5'5" on a good day with unusual wrist to floor measurements. Took me a lot of self-discovery to come to the conclusion that i need a really short putter (30.5"). 

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Current tester for the Titleist TSi Driver

Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft

Updated 12/27/2020
Driver:titelist-small: TSi 2 - Graphite Design AD-XC 6S
Hybrids:taylormade-small: SIM Max 3H, 4H - Matrix Ozik 85S
Irons:srixon-small: ZX5 5 - PW - Nippon Modus 120 S
Wedges: :cleveland-small: CBX 2 54, CBX Full Face 58 - KBS Hi-Rev S
Putter:  :EVNROLL: ER2
 

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I think its good to remind folks that in the company name TXG, the T and X stand for Tour eXperience.  Meaning the fitting will be a grip to sole size analysis similar to what the elite players get from their sponsor club manufacturers.  Dicks, CC, Golf Galaxy, 2nd Swing, etc are not at the level of a tour experience type fitting and shouldn't be expected to compete at that level.  Even if their prices seem high, they aren't as much as a TXG level fitting.

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Modern Bag:  Ping G410+ 9*, Accra TourZ X265 M5;  Callaway Mavrik 16.5* 4W, EvenFlow Riptide 6.0 S 70g;  Mizuno JPX 919 HMP 4i, PX LZ 6.0;  Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 5 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  Cleveland Tour Action 49*, 53*, 57*; PX LZ 6.5 ;  Ping Heppler Fetch;  Ball - Snell MTB-X; Bag - Sun Mountain H2NO 

Classic Bag:  Driver - Wilson Staff Persimmon; 3w - Hogan Speed Slot; 5w - Wilson Staff Tour Block; 3 - pw - Staff Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

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1 hour ago, Shapotomous said:

I think its good to remind folks that in the company name TXG, the T and X stand for Tour eXperience.  Meaning the fitting will be a grip to sole size analysis similar to what the elite players get from their sponsor club manufacturers.  Dicks, CC, Golf Galaxy, 2nd Swing, etc are not at the level of a tour experience type fitting and shouldn't be expected to compete at that level.  Even if their prices seem high, they aren't as much as a TXG level fitting.

you make a good point.  differing levels of service and quality are important distinctions when you consider the options out there.  if your expectations match the level of service you're paying for, then you should always be happy with what you get.  if you want champagne and you've got a bud light budget, well that's a different story.

for instance, i got "fit" for a TSi driver the other day at PGASS...for free.  a very nice guy named Tony brought over both the 2 and 3 heads along with a few x-stiff shafts and let me fire off about a dozen drives with each.  he swapped out heads and shafts when i asked him to, made a few generic comments about spin rate and launch angle (basically just interpreted the numbers on the screen as well as anyone on this forum can), wished me a happy new year and sent me on my way.  i left a very happy camper because all i wanted to do was hit a few balls with the new driver while my buddy burned up his gift cards.  

if i paid for that fitting and received that level of service and attention i would've been furious.

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:taylormade-small: SIM2 8º | KuroKage XT 70TX
:taylormade-small: SIM 3W 14º | Fujikura Atmos Black Tour Spec 9TX
:titelist-small: U500 2i | Fujikura Ventus HB Black 10TX
:titelist-small: T100 4-PW | Dynamic Gold X7
::vokey-small: SM6 52* SM8 56* SM8 60* | Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
:scotty-small:  Futura 5w

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Its interesting, but maybe not surprising, that a thread that specifically tries to exclude discussions of fittings has veered into a discussion of different fitters.

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:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Its interesting, but maybe not surprising, that a thread that specifically tries to exclude discussions of fittings has veered into a discussion of different fitters.

the only thing missing is that many OEMs used to and still do tailor equipment to the average golfer.  People complained about that as well by saying the shafts were weak to flex, had made for shafts, and weren't blades.  Now,  they simply offer lots more no upcharge shafts and head models so everyone can find a club that works for them.  You still have to do a "fitting" to try and find the best combination for you or just pick up any club and figure out how to make it work (fit yourself to the club)

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :taylormade-small:TM-180

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

the only thing missing is that many OEMs used to and still do tailor equipment to the average golfer.  People complained about that as well by saying the shafts were weak to flex, had made for shafts, and weren't blades.  Now,  they simply offer lots more no upcharge shafts and head models so everyone can find a club that works for them.  You still have to do a "fitting" to try and find the best combination for you or just pick up any club and figure out how to make it work (fit yourself to the club)

I would also note, though not sure of it's accuracy, that a LOT of OEM's tend to take older shafts and put them in their new offerings.  So like for example the article I read some time ago, wish I could find it again, postulated that they would take last years Hzrdus Smoke shaft and put a new sticker treatment or paint job on it and then put it in a new club offering.  So off the rack you may not be getting the latest and greatest in tech. 

I'm not sure of the accuracy of that article, but it's always stuck in my head when it comes to stock equipment and the pitfalls that could POSSIBLY await by buying blindly.  

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BNewt51

:taylormade-small:  9* Sim  Hzrdus Smoke "Yellow" Handcrafted 6.5  (Best borrow I've ever made from a buddy)

:callaway-small:Epic Flash - 14* 3-wood Mitsubishi Tensei Blue X-stiff

:titelist-small: TSI2 19* Hybrid Tensei Blue X-Stiff

:taylormade-small: -P770 4-PW KBS C-Taper 120 S 

:taylormade-small: - 50* , 54* and 58* MG2 Wedges  Dynamic Gold Tour S200

:scotty-cameron-1: - Tour Select Square Back

:taylormade-small: - Taylormade Flextech Bag (Blue and Grey)

:taylormade-small: - TP5 and TP5 Pix 

Bushnell Tour V-4 - Non-Slope edition 🙁

*King of taking (borrowing) all my club ***** friends clubs after they've discarded them after a couple months! 🤣

 

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That's truly a shame!  Not sure why anyone would waste their money at a place like that when they could go elsewhere and get the exact same ON PAR type of fitting with someone who can provide the same services without up-charging anything.  


Your fitting comes down to:
1) your own honest assessment of your game and your needs.
2) the fitter’s ability/knowledge
3) available product to fit you in to

You can get a bad fitting anywhere: I would argue that a fitting being free isn’t part of the value of fitting. Rather, the value is in an experienced fitter who listens to your feedback and utilizes their experience to produce clubs that offer you consistent, predictable performance.

I’ve always believed that I got exactly what I payed for.


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24CC2B3B-0E46-4165-97D1-F1CA4C5041C8.png

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34 minutes ago, BNewton51 said:

I would also note, though not sure of it's accuracy, that a LOT of OEM's tend to take older shafts and put them in their new offerings.  So like for example the article I read some time ago, wish I could find it again, postulated that they would take last years Hzrdus Smoke shaft and put a new sticker treatment or paint job on it and then put it in a new club offering.  So off the rack you may not be getting the latest and greatest in tech. 

I'm not sure of the accuracy of that article, but it's always stuck in my head when it comes to stock equipment and the pitfalls that could POSSIBLY await by buying blindly.  

Yes there was a company that did that and it’s not standard across all brands and it’s not Project X.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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21 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yes there was a company that did that and it’s not standard across all brands and it’s not Project X.

 

Ok, thanks for that confirmation. I I thought I read that somewhere and was totally blown away by it frankly.  BUT, I'm quite happy to hear it wasn't project x though. 

BNewt51

:taylormade-small:  9* Sim  Hzrdus Smoke "Yellow" Handcrafted 6.5  (Best borrow I've ever made from a buddy)

:callaway-small:Epic Flash - 14* 3-wood Mitsubishi Tensei Blue X-stiff

:titelist-small: TSI2 19* Hybrid Tensei Blue X-Stiff

:taylormade-small: -P770 4-PW KBS C-Taper 120 S 

:taylormade-small: - 50* , 54* and 58* MG2 Wedges  Dynamic Gold Tour S200

:scotty-cameron-1: - Tour Select Square Back

:taylormade-small: - Taylormade Flextech Bag (Blue and Grey)

:taylormade-small: - TP5 and TP5 Pix 

Bushnell Tour V-4 - Non-Slope edition 🙁

*King of taking (borrowing) all my club ***** friends clubs after they've discarded them after a couple months! 🤣

 

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10 hours ago, cnosil said:

the only thing missing is that many OEMs used to and still do tailor equipment to the average golfer.  People complained about that as well by saying the shafts were weak to flex, had made for shafts, and weren't blades.  Now,  they simply offer lots more no upcharge shafts and head models so everyone can find a club that works for them.  You still have to do a "fitting" to try and find the best combination for you or just pick up any club and figure out how to make it work (fit yourself to the club)

This is fascinating that you bring this up - stock offerings and the average imaginary golfer. I have been using the shaft profiles offered with a given head to self fit myself into the appropriate head. Let me explain

I noticed that certain game improvement heads only came in lighter, high launching shafts with lighter swing weights in a couple, few manufacturers. When I looked at the more player's type clubs they had shafts that were a bit heavier, stiffer, and different launch characteristics. I deducted that the average player playing that type of club was more skilled, had a higher swing speed, and would benefit from those attributes. 

I would go so far as to say some club makers are fitting the average buyer in that category based on the designs 

I could be way off. What do you think?

Golf is simple - people are complicated.

5w Taylormade SLDR S 19* - 220yd, Ping G2 5-U - 190-105, Maltby M+ 54* & MG 60* - 95-75, Evnroll ER8, Titleist 816 H1 4h 21*, Maltby 4 Hybrid Iron 24* - 210-200, Callaway XR16 8* - 235 carry

886809507_image1(5).jpeg.56bc697c3b02b1fb00feb8d4b66389bc~2.jpeg

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Ping...

Is there an OEM that provides clubs that really do fit their consumers better than another OEM without having to be customized, custom fit, or changed from off the rack? For example, is the stock shaft true to flex, a good fit for length, loft, and lie, and the head design does what the marketing hype says?
I was reading comments all over talking about drivers being marketed with shafts that are too long, lofts that are too low and flexes that are too stiff than what a player needs. Then other people saying fitters fit based on distance wars. Then posts on launch monitor battles have created loft jacked clubs. 
Is any OEM cutting through the fringe with integrity?
I have a couple OEMs in mind, but I am curious what you all think?
I am not trying to eliminate getting fit. I am just asking if there are brands that fit more people closer to the stock offerings like the company just gets it!


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Offering to custom build the fitted clubs to the exact specifications with no deviations in loft, lie, or swingweight with other things like shaft frequency matching, puring, wedge stamping and other personalizations is a service.

Oh, no I completely understand the point you're making.  And I wouldn't dispute it in any way shape or form. 
What I would say about a CC or similar establishment is that they are selling a service but they guise it as a place to get golf equipment.  You can't market yourself as a service oriented establishment and then say but we'll sell you the clubs and upcharge you without people taking exception to it. 
That said, however, I am one that would say if CC or whatever establishment you choose to go to is within your budget and you're willing to pay for the exact service / product they are offering then there is no right or wrong.  It fits for YOU.  And that's ok.  I personally just wouldn't go to a place such as that to pay twice, in some cases, for products that I could go elsewhere to get and only pay once.  
Even saying that though it comes down to what the market will bare and if it bares out that those businesses can thrive with what they are doing, then god bless them!  


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21 hours ago, BNewton51 said:

Having worked in the Golf Industry for a while in my younger days I know there's not a LOT of margin in clubs, BUT if you add in a charge for the fitting and the margin, those types of places are making out hand over fist.  Not to mention if they charge you for any adjustments that you ask to have done and or swapping of shafts or grips

@BNewton51 golf has changed a lot there is really not any margin in OEM clubs off the rack anymore. Maybe if you’re lucky 10%. OEM have begun to use performance based credits to backend subsidize a companies p&l based on volume. Good shops will pass that on to its customers which creates loyalty. Fitters also don’t get paid for their time at places like CC and others, they make a commission of the sale which encourages them to do crazy things like swap out OEM stock offerings for similar non stock items. SST pure on your putter crazy margin stacked build fees. Even crazy expensive upcharges on wood shafts might carry maybe 50 points but they employee cheap labor to build which in turn leads to bad builds which then I turn promotes spending more money to get it fixed....

o snap wait.... guess places like CC and others are robbing people blindly 😝 but the comment on the OEM stuff is true... only things that have any margin to cover overhead is truly custom builds... even putters which cost around $60-$80 to make are sold now no longer a MSRP or MAP pricing but a UMRP pricing which means the OEM sets the price to be sold at in the store... not everyone needs or wants some oban ct115 shafts (huge problem with them) when the modus 120 will do in the stock srixon set... dang forgot to mention significant swing changes... o yah personal $.02 if a company tells you not to read their google Reviews but their website reviews run and run fast...

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Driver:taylormade-small: SIM 10.5, Graphite Design Tour AD-XC 6X 

Woods:titelist-small: TSi2 16.5, Fujikura Ventus Blue 7X

Hybrid: :ping-small: G410 3&4H, Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 95X 

Irons:titelist-small: T-100 3-PW, Nippon Modus 120 X 

Wedges: :mizuno-small: T20, DG TI S400, 50/56/60

Putter:  :EVNROLL: ER1.2 W/BGT Stability Shaft

Ball:  :titelist-small: ProV1X-Optic Yellow

Bag: :ping-small: Pioneer

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7 hours ago, Buffly said:

This is fascinating that you bring this up - stock offerings and the average imaginary golfer. I have been using the shaft profiles offered with a given head to self fit myself into the appropriate head. Let me explain

I noticed that certain game improvement heads only came in lighter, high launching shafts with lighter swing weights in a couple, few manufacturers. When I looked at the more player's type clubs they had shafts that were a bit heavier, stiffer, and different launch characteristics. I deducted that the average player playing that type of club was more skilled, had a higher swing speed, and would benefit from those attributes. 

I would go so far as to say some club makers are fitting the average buyer in that category based on the designs 

I could be way off. What do you think?

Yes GI type clubs tend to come with lighter shafts. They are designed to get the ball in the air and for forgiveness on off center hits. Slower swing speed players are usually the ones who need this help so the lighter weights will aid in generating speed. That’s not to say lighter weights are only for slow swing. I have two golfing buddies playing 105g shafts in their players distance and cb type irons and neither are what would be considered slow swings.

 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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7 hours ago, Buffly said:

This is fascinating that you bring this up - stock offerings and the average imaginary golfer. I have been using the shaft profiles offered with a given head to self fit myself into the appropriate head. Let me explain

I noticed that certain game improvement heads only came in lighter, high launching shafts with lighter swing weights in a couple, few manufacturers. When I looked at the more player's type clubs they had shafts that were a bit heavier, stiffer, and different launch characteristics. I deducted that the average player playing that type of club was more skilled, had a higher swing speed, and would benefit from those attributes. 

I would go so far as to say some club makers are fitting the average buyer in that category based on the designs 

I could be way off. What do you think?

Stock offerings are built for curb appeal. That’s why people end up talking about what the bottom of a driver looks like because it’s the first thing you see... it’s why all murdered out edition clubs come out... not just in golf people always stretch for something that is above of them which is natural to want better things. Golf however unlike anything else is the only static based sport besides bowling I think. Meaning the ball is not moving until you make it move. All other sports are dynamically based in the sense you are trying to predict and react not think things through. All this is important because outside of hockey most equipment in other sports serve the same function and performance level. Golf is not the case because not everyone can perform a static task with the same ability. You need different sets of tools to accomplish the task. While others use blades irons one may need some Cleveland turbo launchers to do the same thing. 

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Driver:taylormade-small: SIM 10.5, Graphite Design Tour AD-XC 6X 

Woods:titelist-small: TSi2 16.5, Fujikura Ventus Blue 7X

Hybrid: :ping-small: G410 3&4H, Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 95X 

Irons:titelist-small: T-100 3-PW, Nippon Modus 120 X 

Wedges: :mizuno-small: T20, DG TI S400, 50/56/60

Putter:  :EVNROLL: ER1.2 W/BGT Stability Shaft

Ball:  :titelist-small: ProV1X-Optic Yellow

Bag: :ping-small: Pioneer

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My response based off how I perceive your questions/post: Based on personal 40+ year experience the only OEM brand that I would buy off the rack/stock is PING. Pick a decade back to the 70's and I could game/hit every iron in the set from a PING set. What they called standard, regular flex, standard size grip I could easily make center strikes and get the ball in the air reasonably straight. I have never had a playing partner complain about a stock PING (off the rack) other than they hit a little high in the wind (mainly 70's-mid 90's / balata balls). I gamed either the Black dot or Red dot. Was not fit to either back in the day, just purchased one or two sets of each. 

I have played many brands over the years. Currently game multiple brands including PING clubs. The Pings that I currently do play are based off fitting variables and tailored to my game/ability. I have been building/fitting for several decades so I am not in the group that buys off the rack blindly..... I may buy off the rack and then adjust according to my needs (re-shaft/bend lie angle, etc). Realize that is not what you are looking for with your original question/post but wanted to share. 

If you asked me for another choice besides PING, I would lean close to Callaway Big Bertha (woods to irons). Started with early 90'S models through todays offerings. Those were the next closest that I could/would invest in without worrying about quality or clubs not fitting me throughout the entire set. The discriminator for me with Callaway vs the Ping is with the long irons both back in the 90's and today's offerings. Due to my ability and/or swing speed (slow range) I battled consistency getting the long irons in the air combined with inconsistent carry distances vs the Pings. Probably had to do with stronger lofts and longer club length from the Callaway's. The Callaway woods and mid irons down were near spot on regarding being able to hit, hit straight and get up in the air like I needed in stock offerings. Absolutely loved the War Bird FW's as they performed very consistent from any turf condition I faced. Again off the rack club, no adjustments. 

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For those that recommend fittings. How many strokes do you save or is it a small amount and they just feel better. Years ago, I saw Vijay Singh choke down on his clubs and I went with + one inch and thought I'd choke down.  I play these at a full length and love them. Do I play better? Probably not, they just feel great. 

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@aerospace_ray I'm glad you had a chance to chime in. I have always respected your thoughts and comments. 

You and another person both responded with Ping which is not a surprise to me at all. I am in the same camp that Ping has done a great job at making this game we love a bit more enjoyable. I have waited until a few have responded before I brought my feelings on the subject. 

In my experience, as little as it has been compared to seasoned veterans, is that Ping has taken many variables into account that do make their clubs stand out as fitting the masses. 

The only issue is that ignorant people who don't understand the color dot system can create problems for themselves thinking that the colors don't mean anything. 

I have come to respect Ping for their commitment to improvement without apology. The example of the G400 LST not being replaced right away because the new model wasn't better makes the point. 

There is a Ping driver in my future - probably by summer. 

 

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Golf is simple - people are complicated.

5w Taylormade SLDR S 19* - 220yd, Ping G2 5-U - 190-105, Maltby M+ 54* & MG 60* - 95-75, Evnroll ER8, Titleist 816 H1 4h 21*, Maltby 4 Hybrid Iron 24* - 210-200, Callaway XR16 8* - 235 carry

886809507_image1(5).jpeg.56bc697c3b02b1fb00feb8d4b66389bc~2.jpeg

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