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pozzit

Why are Lofts getting JACKED

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Ok so I'm trying to understand why lofts are getting so much stronger. Im under the option that the strengthening of lofts is driven primary by marketing and not by true need. I will gladly admit I'm wrong if there are requirements for the lofts getting stronger to compensate for tech but I'm just curious why.

 

So my understanding and opinion. The tech improvements in irons over the last 20 years has been significant, lower CG for higher flight and better decent angles, more perimeter weighting for forgiveness, thinner faces for more ball speed. All these improvements are fantastic if you need those things. I have also noticed over the last 10-15 years the standard 8 club set has shifted from 3-PW to 4-GW.

 

I know we are in a marketing driven society and when a 7 iron is tested at the fitter and has less loft and goes longer it makes us want to pay money but it's always a 7 and not a true comparison. Also wanting to show off and say we hit our 7 iron 180 yards compared to your buddy who had to hit 6 or 5 makes us feel strong.

 

So are we really gaining anything by adjusting lofts or are we just slowly changing the number on the bottom of the club?

 

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There's obviously some marketing involved as the average weekend warrior does want to hit the ball longer and straighter.

However, it's also a technical thing. When you lower the CG, you inevitably increase launch angle through the gear effect. It also decreases spin. High launch, low spin and the ball speed gains from the lower lofts and thin faces, which increase energy transfer, mean the ball goes a long way and maintains decent stopping power through descent angle.

It's a trade-off. If they kept more traditional lofts, you'd have launch angles that are too high and you don't get the same ball speed retention with the extra loft.

Ultimately, it's about getting fit for the right clubs for you. I see so many people ranting about jacked lofts when they play blades. Companies still make blades. There's no need to get riled up over a company offering a club that's not meant for you.

There are plenty who can still get by using traditional sets of clubs, but what companies are finding out through the game improvement categories are that traditional sets don't work for everyone and these are the types of clubs that can help make the game more fun for those people and can potentially help them to play better golf without investing a lot of money and time into lessons and playing more often.

As technology advances, we may see loft jacking regress back to more traditional numbers but for the time being it is a necessary part of that slice of the market.



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42 minutes ago, pozzit said:

 

Ok so I'm trying to understand why lofts are getting so much stronger. Im under the option that the strengthening of lofts is driven primary by marketing and not by true need. I will gladly admit I'm wrong if there are requirements for the lofts getting stronger to compensate for tech but I'm just curious why.

 

So my understanding and opinion. The tech improvements in irons over the last 20 years has been significant, lower CG for higher flight and better decent angles, more perimeter weighting for forgiveness, thinner faces for more ball speed. All these improvements are fantastic if you need those things. I have also noticed over the last 10-15 years the standard 8 club set has shifted from 3-PW to 4-GW.

 

I know we are in a marketing driven society and when a 7 iron is tested at the fitter and has less loft and goes longer it makes us want to pay money but it's always a 7 and not a true comparison. Also wanting to show off and say we hit our 7 iron 180 yards compared to your buddy who had to hit 6 or 5 makes us feel strong.

 

So are we really gaining anything by adjusting lofts or are we just slowly changing the number on the bottom of the club?

 

Using MyGolfSpy mobile app

 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Why is there no length standards, flex standards, headweight standards, shoe size standard, etc.  You can say they lofts are jacked and no one can really provide a good reason why.  Like you said, clubs launch higher and travel farther.  Marketing is all about distance;  most players won't buy clubs that go 10 yards less than their current clubs.    Ultimately the number on the bottom of the club is and has always been meaningless;  find the clubs that allow you to hit the ball a specific distance.  If that is labelled 7, 33*, A, 150 yrd, or something else,  does it really matter?

 

 

This is my question as well 

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Jacked lofts don’t exist. Numbers in the bottom of an iron are arbitrary and chosen by the manufacturer. There’s no standard in golf.

pick a style of club and look at the specs for each company in that style.

launch, spin and land angle are what matters. The manufacturers work to get irons into a certain window. 

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My only issue with it is some manufacturers don’t make corresponding wedges. I personally would like to see more set GW’s. It is a full shot club for most everyone, yet we have to try and match a specialty wedge in there. There are a lot of sets with GW’s for sure... but a few in my preferred iron category lacks. That 50°/51° square soled wedge.

Speaking in my own preferences of course. I’d love to see a Blueprint GW...


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My only issue with it is some manufacturers don’t make corresponding wedges. I personally would like to see more set GW’s. It is a full shot club for most everyone, yet we have to try and match a specialty wedge in there. There are a lot of sets with GW’s for sure... but a few in my preferred iron category lacks. That 50°/51° square soled wedge.

Speaking in my own preferences of course. I’d love to see a Blueprint GW...


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I had an issue with my Hot Metal Pros for this reason. The PW was 45*, but went 150 yards. My 50* is and Edel and goes 120 yards, leaving a ridiculous gap.



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I’m with the OP here. It’s difficult to find an iron with some forgiveness that doesn’t make the ball travel further, loft-to-loft. My Hot Metal Pro PW was 45*, my Ping i210 was 46*.... The HMP went 15 yards further. Why??? Yep, folks want more distance and need it, I guess, but it’s hard to shop for clubs with some offset, forgiveness, and not have the ball go super high, spin low, and go further. Hot faces leave huge gaps at the wedges... See my previous post!

 

 

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Why is there no length standards, flex standards, headweight standards, shoe size standard, etc.  You can say they lofts are jacked and no one can really provide a good reason why.  Like you said, clubs launch higher and travel farther.  Marketing is all about distance;  most players won't buy clubs that go 10 yards less than their current clubs.    Ultimately the number on the bottom of the club is and has always been meaningless;  find the clubs that allow you to hit the ball a specific distance.  If that is labelled 7, 33*, A, 150 yrd, or something else,  does it really matter?
 
 
First off you right it doesnt matter and my point in this discussion was to try to understand if I was missing something. I completely agree if clubs were A,B,C or some how allowed you to put your own distances on there that what is truly important to the golfer.

My main point is to understand if I was incorrect in my belief that deceasing lofts was only intended from a marketing standpoint. Although I think that is a main driver there are probably some merit to helping lower the trajectory.

My concern is that it could hurt the game and players to compete over unimportant arbitrary number that in an actual round mean nothing. If the other guys hit his 7 iron 190 that shouldn't affect what club I hit from 190. I want players to make logical decisions on how it affects there dispursion and distance control and ignore the fact that the 7 goes a mile and a half.

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That is an issue that most brands haven't really addressed.

Mizuno, though, have the JPX line of wedges that I think would be more in line performance wise with the HMP irons.

PXG is one of the only manufacturers that I know of that offers their GI (0211 and 0311XF) and SGI (0311 SGI) irons all the way through to a LW so you're at least getting the same tech throughout the set which makes gapping easier. They even offer a GW in their Players (0311 P) iron.

The issue really just comes in when you go from a club designed for distance, i.e. the iron set, to a club designed for control, i.e. the specialty wedges.

I’m with the OP here. It’s difficult to find an iron with some forgiveness that doesn’t make the ball travel further, loft-to-loft. My Hot Metal Pro PW was 45*, my Ping i210 was 46*.... The HMP went 15 yards further. Why??? Yep, folks want more distance and need it, I guess, but it’s hard to shop for clubs with some offset, forgiveness, and not have to ball go super high, spin low, and go further. Hot faces leave huge gaps at the wedges... See my previous post!


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The issue really just comes in when you go from a club designed for distance, i.e. the iron set, to a club designed for control, i.e. the specialty wedges. MyGolfSpy mobile app 

 

 

 Interesting I would say that the irons are more about distance control then just distance. I need my driver and woods to go far I need my irons and wedges to be exact.

 

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Your irons sure. But what I'm saying there specifically applies to people gaming GI, SGI or Player's Distance irons but then transition directly into specialist wedges.

 
 
 
 
 

 Interesting I would say that the irons are more about distance control then just distance. I need my driver and woods to go far I need my irons and wedges to be exact. 
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6 hours ago, pozzit said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Interesting I would say that the irons are more about distance control then just distance. I need my driver and woods to go far I need my irons and wedges to be exact.

 

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Distance control means different things to different people.

some want to flight the ball down and hit different distances with the same club.

others want consistent distance which is another form of control where they don’t catch a hot one from the fairway and fly a green.

companies know golfers want to hit the ball far and so they market distance which is easier to sell than accuracy. Some guys want to hit their 7 iron the same distance they did when they were younger.

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Thats a good point RickyBobby distance control does mean different things to different people. I was referring more toward a consistent distance. I need my 8 iron to fly 10 yards further then my 9 and 10 yards less then my 7. The need is for a small window of distance.

I will agree distance sells just like 0-60mph times on cars, girls in bikinis in beer commercials and low low prices on Black Friday.

I just feel there may be some disservice to golfers by being lured to needing to hit it further with less club instead of hitting the club with the consistent distance and forgiveness that is needed.

Saying all that I appreciate all the feedback so far I have a feeling being on a forum for a golf company driven by making decisions based on the right data and not taking the marketing dollars and promoting players to but the best club on all metrics.

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17 minutes ago, pozzit said:

Thats a good point RickyBobby distance control does mean different things to different people. I was referring more toward a consistent distance. I need my 8 iron to fly 10 yards further then my 9 and 10 yards less then my 7. The need is for a small window of distance.

I will agree distance sells just like 0-60mph times on cars, girls in bikinis in beer commercials and low low prices on Black Friday.

I just feel there may be some disservice to golfers by being lured to needing to hit it further with less club instead of hitting the club with the consistent distance and forgiveness that is needed.

Saying all that I appreciate all the feedback so far I have a feeling being on a forum for a golf company driven by making decisions based on the right data and not taking the marketing dollars and promoting players to but the best club on all metrics.

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That is some tight gapping. For most companies they look to get 15 yards between clubs.

theres a large number of golfers out there that want to hit the ball far. They don’t care that it might go to far or that the gap is 17 yards instead of 12. I think most golfers would prefer to hit an iron over a hybrid so if a 4i goes the same distance and hybrid and is almost as say to get in the air that’s not a bad thing for most. Everyone wants golf to be easy so what does it matter if someone plays clubs that go high and far? What does it matter if that person has a gap that’s bigger or smaller than someone else prefers? The golfer looking at the gi/sgi type of club is buying it because they are inconsistent with contact on the face and thus distance. If the golfer is out playing and has a good time or is just happy to be playing that’s all that matters.
 

the great thing about golf is there are lots of brands with lots of choices from baby blades to almost a full set of hybrids. Find what works for you and play that. 

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50 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That is some tight gapping. For most companies they look to get 15 yards between clubs.

My gapping on my irons is about 10 yards between each iron, so I'm not sure which company you are referring to (my irons are the PING G irons on my 5-9 irons).

Here's a breakdown of what is in my bag, distance wise, with my irons:

  • 3 hybrid - 205 yds
  • 4 crossover - 195 yds
  • 5 iron - 185 yds
  • 6 iron - 175 yds
  • 7 iron - 165 yds
  • 8 iron - 155 yds
  • 9 iron - 145 yds
  • PW - 125 yds
  • GW - 115 yds
  • SW - 100 yds
  • LW - 90 yds

So beyond the massive gap between PW and 9 iron, most of my gapping is about 10 yards.

Edited by GSwag

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Before I was fit for my current set my fitter gave me an input sheet and asked that I record about 5-6 rounds and all my shot distances, what club I used, and the results of those shots. It even asked for weather conditions - wind, wet/dry, temp, etc. I then sent the data to my fitter before my fitting day arrived. Then when I arrived he had another questionnaire form that I filled out which we discussed prior to starting the actual fitting. This questionnaire requested other basic data such as typical ball flight patterns, scores, hcp., type of turf I normally play from, balls used, expectations, strong or weak points in my game, my age, etc. etc.

Back to the topic of this thread - I can't tell you the lofts of my irons except wedges (I have the data somewhere) but they are set at what's generally considered traditional lofts. The results of my fitting wasn't increased distance or higher/lower ball flight. I was mostly interested in accuracy which increased dramatically. My irons like most everyone else's are numbered. All I know when I play a certain numbered iron are my expected distances. I do not rely on another players club selection when making a shot. Sure I ask from time to time but it's immaterial to what I select because their clubs were not made for me. 

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. I do not rely on another players club selection when making a shot. Sure I ask from time to time but it's immaterial to what I select because their clubs were not made for me. 


Exactly. If I ask another player about club selection I really want to known if you hit the shot well and how far do you normally hit the club not the number on the bottom.
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13 hours ago, PMookie said:

I’m with the OP here. It’s difficult to find an iron with some forgiveness that doesn’t make the ball travel further, loft-to-loft. My Hot Metal Pro PW was 45*, my Ping i210 was 46*.... The HMP went 15 yards further. Why??? Yep, folks want more distance and need it, I guess, but it’s hard to shop for clubs with some offset, forgiveness, and not have the ball go super high, spin low, and go further. Hot faces leave huge gaps at the wedges... See my previous post!

 

 

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While I believe there are numerous options for forgiveness without huge distance gains you are correct in the fact that there are gaps that the OEM's are creating with the lofts. I believe that they will catch up eventually but having a wedge go 150 when your gw goes 120 is a huge problem. When I got my P790's this is the one thing I was worried about so I had the short irons bent 2* weak. I try to base all my gaps off my PW @ 135, it worked but off the rack it would have been a big problem. With my 785's they are bent 1* strong in order to achieve the same distance with my PW. 

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