Farmers Insurance Open

[tony@CIC]

I do believe it's time to move on, given this topic is about the Farmers Ins Open not Reed. So in that context why can't Tony F. close it out on the weekends? I keep pulling for him, but.....

[LICC]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd like to understand which "facts" I'm ignoring.  I've watched the videos a bunch of times, and I believe Reed followed the Rules all along.  I've read allegations that Reed pushed down his ball, or that he dug around with his fingers, but the video doesn't show that.  I'm not saying its impossible, but you simply can't tell for sure.  I've read that he "palmed" the ball, but even that isn't clear.  Its completely possible to carry a ball with thumb and finger, and still cup it so its not clearly visible.  I'd suggest that's really a more natural position for your hand, fingers curled slightly instead of straight out.  Again, he could have wiped the ball in his palm, but you can't tell for sure, its not a "fact".  I've read that its impossible to a ball to embed on the bounce, yet the Rules Official determined that the ball was indeed embedded. 

So please, what "facts" am I ignoring?

Reed likely took advantage of the rules in an unethical way. He may (or may not) have followed the procedures as permitted in the rules, but it is very poor practice to move your ball without allowing for your playing partner (or rules official) the opportunity to look at it and watch you move it. It also is at the least careless to hold the ball the way he did while he was pushing his finger into the ground and before he set it aside. Unethically taking advantage of the leniency of a rule should not be brushed aside as just fine because he followed the minimum procedural requirement.

[LICC]

16 hours ago, Rickp said:

Sure do like the Camera Drones. Give a completely different view of the golf course.
I’ve never been to Torrey Pines so this perspective is great.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Torrey is a good course but overrated. It has great scenery and nice views, and a few really good holes but most are just decent, unmemorable golf holes.

[GolfSpy AFG]

27 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

I do believe it's time to move on, given this topic is about the Farmers Ins Open not Reed. So in that context why can't Tony F. close it out on the weekends? I keep pulling for him, but.....

Thank you!

Finau...the three putts killed him.  Needs some flatstick work, and a little more killer instinct, both of which he seemed to acknowledge in his post-round interview.  
I for one am pulling for him to break through. I play a lot with one of the guys from the Big Break season Tony won, and by all accounts he really is that nice a guy.

[fixyurdivot]

22 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

So unless you can prove definitively that Reed cheated, I suggest we all move on from this discussion.

As if on cue .  

 

[LICC]

On 1/31/2021 at 9:26 AM, DaveP043 said:

I just disagree.  Because neither his playing partners, caddies, or the volunteer saw the ball bounce, he had reason to suspect that the ball was embedded.  So he first squats down to take a close look.  Because the rough is deep, he can't see the bottom of the ball, the only way to evaluate whether its embedded is to mark and lift it.  He does that.  He sets it off to the side, so he doesn't accidentally clean it.  If its clearly not embedded, he would have to replace it, uncleaned, and play on without waiting for the official.  Because it feels as if it may actually be embedded, he asks the official to confirm, and the official agrees.  So he cleans the ball, defines his Relief Area, and drops the ball.

How often do we read complaints about players calling officials for ever little simple question?  Reed did the right thing, made an initial assessment, and then called for the official.  He's NOT required to have the official there from the very beginning.

The ball clearly did bounce.  However, the camera angle from behind and above Reed showed me pretty clearly that Reed couldn't have seen the ball land.  He couldn't see the bounce.  Apparently nobody else saw the bounce.  So he had a valid reason to think the ball could be embedded.

Did it embed on the second bounce?  It definitely seems unlikely, but its possible.  Four inches of rain the day before, and uneven ground surface, I'm absolutely certain there were some isolated area of soft  wet ground.  Or maybe the official felt something he identified as a "lip" that was there before the ball arrived.  To accuse Reed of deliberately pressing down the ball, without any real evidence, is to make a decision based on your own bias rather than on what you see.

 

Golfweek:

“I mean, he did everything by the book according to the official and everyone stood by there,” said Schauffele, who didn’t search for video of Reed’s situation but heard players talking about it. “Obviously the talk amongst the boys isn’t great, I guess, but he’s protected by the (PGA) Tour and that’s all that matters, I guess.” ...

When asked if he’d ever ran into a similar situation on the course, Schauffele’s response was direct and to the point: “I would not put myself and create a situation like that.

“If my ball’s embedded, I usually will wait and call someone and kind of wait until everyone’s on the same page, wait to look at video,” he continued. “So I try to avoid situations like that just for that reason.”

[PMookie]

3 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

According to the rule book, neither cheated. However, the circumstances were not the same.

If Reed had done what Rory did, I doubt seriously if there'd be much discussion about it. Reed DID NOT do what Rory did however. 

Rory's drop: As Rory approaches his ball it appears as though it is embedded. He alerts his playing competitor, marks the ball, lifts it, and asks for clarification regarding relief - one club length. Rory without hesitation, drops the ball mere inches from where he marked it and goes on about his business.

The rules clearly allow him to operate under what HE knows and believes to be true, he did not ask for information from outside sources, he never saw a replay - until well after the fact I'm sure.

Reed's drop: Before Reed can even see the lie he asks the volunteer if it bounced. He alerts his competitor, marks the ball, and lifts it. Here is where things are VASTLY DIFFERENT. When Reed lifts the ball, he continues to hold it in his HAND while asking for an official and poking around the supposed pitch mark.

The ball can be seen in his hand at the 26-second mark of the video linked below - immediately after he calls for an official and it is clear by the evidence that he actually picked the ball up sometime before that. Reed then spends the next 8-10 seconds standing over the pitch mark and feeling around - doing who knows what to the original lie. The ball remains in his hand - in the palm of his hand - until the 46-second mark when he places it some 5-ish feet away.

 

 

Then the official comes over and is asked to rule on a lie without a golf ball PRESENT which completely negates the point! Official agrees with Reed based on the information at hand which may or may not have been altered at this point - Reed's reputation really calls that into question BTW. Reed is provided relief and uses a full club-length to determine the most advantageous drop - well within his rights according to the rules.

I can't argue with the rules for an embedded ball, but I will absolutely argue about Reed's intentions and behavior regarding this particular situation. He's earned it. 

I disagree. Both got rulings, both had the same circumstance, and the two identical rulings prove it to be so.

Folks are all over this ONLY because it’s Reed. Rory getting a pass.....

3 hours ago, StrokerAce said:

Reed is a complex individual....but he's got game for days and nobody can argue with that. Dude can flat out play.
If you're interested in some backstory I found this pretty good.
https://tobaccoroadblues.com/2015/01/30/the-villain-patrick-reed/

 

Serious game! 

[PMookie]

2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I was going to post this - thanks. Even the broadcast team kept trying to poke at the topic after the rules officials weighed in.  Then, in his post event interview, someone in the press felt the need to pick the scab again... without mentioning the parallel with Rory (for obvious reasons). Double standards are indeed alive and well .  

And we get, “Oh, but, but, but,” as the responses. Laughable to me.

[yungkory]

1 hour ago, Getoffmylawn said:

Thank you!

Finau...the three putts killed him.  Needs some flatstick work, and a little more killer instinct, both of which he seemed to acknowledge in his post-round interview.  
I for one am pulling for him to break through. I play a lot with one of the guys from the Big Break season Tony won, and by all accounts he really is that nice a guy.

What's crazy is that he still only had 25 putts. That seems like a good number to me lol.

[LICC]

7 minutes ago, PMookie said:

I disagree. Both got rulings, both had the same circumstance, and the two identical rulings prove it to be so.

Folks are all over this ONLY because it’s Reed. Rory getting a pass.....

Serious game! 

The video with Rory was hard to tell, but it seems different in that it looks like Rory called over to Sabbatini before he touched the ball. If he didn't, then he also didn't engage in the best practice that he should have. Also, Rory dropped right next to where the ball was, in the same heavy rough. Reed much improved his lie with his drop.

[GolfSpy AFG]

Just now, yungkory said:

What's crazy is that he still only had 25 putts. That seems like a good number to me lol.

Yeah, I'm with you, it's just that when he needs a putt he doesn't sink it...more of that killer instinct thing.

The fairway wood on 18, I'm not sure what to make of that.  He wasn't saying "oh no" with the ball in the air so it didn't seem like a mis-hit, but it seems to me the obvious choice there was to miss long rather than short if you're going to miss.  At the time he needed eagle to tie though, so maybe he was thinking he'd have no chance to hold the green with more club.

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, LICC said:

The video with Rory was hard to tell, but it seems different in that it looks like Rory called over to Sabbatini before he touched the ball. If he didn't, then he also didn't engage in the best practice that he should have. Also, Rory dropped right next to where the ball was, in the same heavy rough. Reed much improved his lie with his drop.

Reed called over to his playing partners to tell them he was going to examine the ball further, before he did anything.  But remember, the rules don't require either player to notify anyone.  As to the drops, each player took a drop within the legal limitations, within 1 clublength of the initial location of the ball (the Reference Point).

6 minutes ago, yungkory said:

What's crazy is that he still only had 25 putts. That seems like a good number to me lol.

So he's 11 under par on the greens, but only -3 for his round.  You're not going to win much when you only hit 10 GIR.  Short game and putting can only do so much.

[PMookie]

7 minutes ago, LICC said:

The video with Rory was hard to tell, but it seems different in that it looks like Rory called over to Sabbatini before he touched the ball. If he didn't, then he also didn't engage in the best practice that he should have. Also, Rory dropped right next to where the ball was, in the same heavy rough. Reed much improved his lie with his drop.

Here’s the thing, no drop or rules question is going to ever be EXACTLY the same. Both had balls bounce twice, both asked around, both moved the ball and checked the lie to see if it was embedded. There a small nuanced differences, but, to me, it’s unjust to pick apart one of them and not the other. 

[TR1PTIK]

6 minutes ago, PMookie said:

Here’s the thing, no drop or rules question is going to ever be EXACTLY the same. Both had balls bounce twice, both asked around, both moved the ball and checked the lie to see if it was embedded. There a small nuanced differences, but, to me, it’s unjust to pick apart one of them and not the other. 

I wouldn't call palming the ball and poking around at the pitch mark a "nuanced difference" but to each their own...

[PMookie]

Just now, TR1PTIK said:

I wouldn't call palming the ball and poking around at the pitch mark a "nuanced difference" but to each their own...

So how the guy held his ball makes it worse?

Mmmmmm, ok. 
 

Both bounced and landed. Both sought input on the way to their ball. Both had a rules official come in. Both were said to have followed the rules properly.

Done, and done.

[cnosil]

So how the guy held his ball makes it worse?
Mmmmmm, ok. 
 
Both bounced and landed. Both sought input on the way to their ball. Both had a rules official come in. Both were said to have followed the rules properly.
Done, and done.

Rory did NOT have a rules official come in.

[GolfSpy AFG]

2 minutes ago, PMookie said:

Here’s the thing, no drop or rules question is going to ever be EXACTLY the same. Both had balls bounce twice, both asked around, both moved the ball and checked the lie to see if it was embedded. There a small nuanced differences, but, to me, it’s unjust to pick apart one of them and not the other. 

I wasn't going to comment, largely because there isn't much that hasn't already been said, but at the end of the day the rules official in the moment took no issue with Reed, and after all the video and follow-up after the round, the tour still took no issue with it.  We're all just sounding the alarm because it's Reed...the bunker at the Hero, Peter Kostis going on record and saying he's seen Reed improve his lie at least 4 times, they all raise our suspicions of the man.

Really the only thing Reed is guilty of is not thinking about, or more likely caring about, the fact that those raised suspicions are around him.  If he did, he wouldn't have touched the ball before an official arrived.

The man won the tournament with plenty of room to spare after all.  

[PMookie]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Rory did NOT have a rules official come in.

Ohhhhhhhhhh! So Reed DID, Rory didn’t.

Hmmmmmmmm. 
Interesting!!!!!!

Yet Rory was good, Reed wasn’t in some people’s view.

Hmmmmmm. Thanks!!!!!

[LICC]

3 minutes ago, PMookie said:

So how the guy held his ball makes it worse?

Mmmmmm, ok. 
 

Both bounced and landed. Both sought input on the way to their ball. Both had a rules official come in. Both were said to have followed the rules properly.

Done, and done.

Like I said before, the camera on Rory's shot wasn't great, but it didn't look like his bounced much, where Reed's bounced forward a decent distance. And of course how someone holds that ball makes a difference with getting mud or dirt off. 

[ncwoz]

1 hour ago, tony@CIC said:

I do believe it's time to move on, given this topic is about the Farmers Ins Open not Reed. So in that context why can't Tony F. close it out on the weekends? I keep pulling for him, but.....

Yes please!

1 hour ago, Getoffmylawn said:

Thank you!

Finau...the three putts killed him.  Needs some flatstick work, and a little more killer instinct, both of which he seemed to acknowledge in his post-round interview.  
I for one am pulling for him to break through. I play a lot with one of the guys from the Big Break season Tony won, and by all accounts he really is that nice a guy.

 

9 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

Yeah, I'm with you, it's just that when he needs a putt he doesn't sink it...more of that killer instinct thing.

The fairway wood on 18, I'm not sure what to make of that.  He wasn't saying "oh no" with the ball in the air so it didn't seem like a mis-hit, but it seems to me the obvious choice there was to miss long rather than short if you're going to miss.  At the time he needed eagle to tie though, so maybe he was thinking he'd have no chance to hold the green with more club.

 

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

So he's 11 under par on the greens, but only -3 for his round.  You're not going to win much when you only hit 10 GIR.  Short game and putting can only do so much.

The podcast @cnosil posted a link to earlier in this thread had some fascinating points on the whole Finau thing. I think they did a fantastic job of offering up the hard stats and then musing to some potential causes creating those facts. A really strong case can be made that basically Tony has remarkably bad luck in the tournaments he plays well in other guys happen to also be play really darn good tournaments.

I know I'm gonna be rooting for him probably more than any other guy (except maaaaybe Tiger) at least until he wins!

[PMookie]

3 minutes ago, LICC said:

Like I said before, the camera on Rory's shot wasn't great, but it didn't look like his bounced much, where Reed's bounced forward a decent distance. And of course how someone holds that ball makes a difference with getting mud or dirt off. 

But we don’t know if there was mud or dirt, we have no idea. So we’re making an assumption he’s doing something extra.

Isn’t that just bringing one’s bias into the equation? Supposition?! To me, the rules official and the Tour found no fault... All that’s left here is adding our own biases to the decision, what happened, what he “must’ve been doing.”

 

[PMookie]

2 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

I do believe it's time to move on, given this topic is about the Farmers Ins Open not Reed. So in that context why can't Tony F. close it out on the weekends? I keep pulling for him, but.....

It was time to move-on once the rules official and the Tour made their decision, for SURE!!!!

[GolfSpy AFG]

4 minutes ago, ncwoz said:

I know I'm gonna be rooting for him probably more than any other guy (except maaaaybe Tiger) at least until he wins!

Me too.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's this weekend, which is a comment for the Waste Management thread...time to leave the Farmer's in the rear view.  We'll all see Torrey on our screens again in June folks!

[ncwoz]

Alrighty folks, I think we're here...

[LICC]

18 minutes ago, PMookie said:

But we don’t know if there was mud or dirt, we have no idea. So we’re making an assumption he’s doing something extra.

Isn’t that just bringing one’s bias into the equation? Supposition?! To me, the rules official and the Tour found no fault... All that’s left here is adding our own biases to the decision, what happened, what he “must’ve been doing.”

 

Of course the rules official and the Tour didn't make an issue of it. Neither wants to avoid the path of least resistance. Clearly, a significant number of other players don't agree with how it was handled, as shown by Xander's and Lanto Griffin's comments.

[Hamachi Style]

2 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

I do believe it's time to move on, given this topic is about the Farmers Ins Open not Reed. So in that context why can't Tony F. close it out on the weekends? I keep pulling for him, but.....

Yes, I guess this like so many things is agree to disagree.

 

I think Finau has been playing great golf the past 2 years. His warm personality has been a welcome presence and he's played well on the last Ryder Cup and Prez Cup teams. He is clearly making minor swing tweaks/ mental changes, evidenced in the Farmers through his pre-shot routine, putter grip, etc. I think he will continue to evolve, get better and get worse, probably get couple wins and miss some cuts. I think if and when he does win again, a lot of fans will celebrate it, because of his strong personality and consistent play. It reminds me of the Washington Capitals a few years ago. They were repeatedly the best/ most consistent team in the regular season, and would always lose in the second round of the playoffs. After a few cycles of this, they won it all, and it wasn't a huge surprise. Even people who weren't caps fans were happy for them. Professional sports often come down to minor and subtle differentiations between great consistent play and the big trophy. I don't think it's clear that Finau needs to see a sports psychologist or get more of a killer mentality as some have suggested. I think one day he's just going to win, playing the same game he's been playing for the past few years.

[ncwoz]

24 minutes ago, Hamachi Style said:

Yes, I guess this like so many things is agree to disagree.

 

I think Finau has been playing great golf the past 2 years. His warm personality has been a welcome presence and he's played well on the last Ryder Cup and Prez Cup teams. He is clearly making minor swing tweaks/ mental changes, evidenced in the Farmers through his pre-shot routine, putter grip, etc. I think he will continue to evolve, get better and get worse, probably get couple wins and miss some cuts. I think if and when he does win again, a lot of fans will celebrate it, because of his strong personality and consistent play. It reminds me of the Washington Capitals a few years ago. They were repeatedly the best/ most consistent team in the regular season, and would always lose in the second round of the playoffs. After a few cycles of this, they won it all, and it wasn't a huge surprise. Even people who weren't caps fans were happy for them. Professional sports often come down to minor and subtle differentiations between great consistent play and the big trophy. I don't think it's clear that Finau needs to see a sports psychologist or get more of a killer mentality as some have suggested. I think one day he's just going to win, playing the same game he's been playing for the past few years.

I'm right there with ya. I'd hate to oversimplify things, but I do know Tiger and Brooks (and probably others?) have mentioned that all they want to do is be in contention in the end, and then you hope the ball bounces your way. It's not like Tony has a string of complete garbage shots/holes that dismantle his round, the probabilities just haven't fallen his way yet.

[Shapotomous]

I was wondering if somebody stepped on either ball while looking for it since there is no way they are embedding after the bounces we saw.  If it was hard enough to bounce like it did it wouldn't embed from the 3' bounce height.  Rory said they looked for about 1-1/2 minutes before finding it so maybe it got stepped on.  I didn't hear if Reed's was also searched for before the volunteer flagged it, anybody know?

[Hook DeLoft]

I don't think anyone can say with certainty that Reed cheated.  It was the "optic" that was bad.  He did two things to make the situation look bad:  he called for a rules official after lifting the ball and he asked the volunteer if the ball had bounced before even looking at it, as if he wanted to know if he could expect others to assume the ball had plugged.  Reed doesn't seem to give a rat's nether region about the opinions of others, so I don't see him spending too much time worrying about this incident.

[fixyurdivot]

The end.... for the love of Pete .