Farmers Insurance Open

[DaveP043]

On 1/31/2021 at 11:45 AM, Chip Strokes said:

the official didn’t get to examine the ball.  he got to see a spot Reed had spent more than a minute poking around at. 

i know he didn’t have to call the official over at all, like in rory’s case.  but if you want confirmation why not get it with the ball in its original spot?

cheaters are very good at cheating. reed might have the rules on his side here but he played that official like a fiddle. 

With the ball in the original spot, all you can see is grass and the top of the ball.  To make an evaluation, you have to see if the bottom of the ball is below the level of the surrounding ground surface, which requires lifting the ball.  If you choose to believe that Reed intentionally created a depression with a camera watching his every move, there's really no discussion possible, he's just guilty, no matter what the facts are.

Edited February 2, 2021 by DaveP043

[Hamachi Style]

It's sad that Reed continues to cheat, and sad that the PGA continues to look the other way, but the worst part is normal people turning off their brain for some reason just to 'go along' with the official ruling.

 

It is physically impossible for that ball to have been plugged. The reason Reed brought up the notion that 'no one saw it bounce' about a thousand times in his post round interview, is he knows, like everyone with a middle school level of physics education, that after the initial hit the ball will have lost most of it's velocity. Especially seeing how short the bounce was on film, there's simply no way. The only way a ball with that little velocity would have broken the surface of the ground is if they were playing golf in an actual swamp, in which case it clearly would have 'plugged' on the first hit.

 

The sky is blue. Grass is green. The sun is bright. Please don't turn off your brains people. We have to be better than this.

[Chip Strokes]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

With the ball in the original spot, all you can see is grass and the top of the ball.  To make an evaluation, you have to see if the bottom of the ball is below the level of the surrounding ground surface, which requires lifting the ball.  If you choose to believe that Reed intentionally created a depression with a damage watching his every move, there's really no discussion possible, he's just guilty, no matter what the facts are.

yes, i understand the rule. i just think the whole thing smells a little funny. 

[cnosil]

21 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

the official didn’t get to examine the ball.  he got to see a spot Reed had spent more than a minute poking around at. 

i know he didn’t have to call the official over at all, like in rory’s case.  but if you want confirmation why not get it with the ball in its original spot?

cheaters are very good at cheating. reed might have the rules on his side here but he played that official like a fiddle. 

So if he didn't call the rules official over you would be fine with what he did?   At this point, all that can be done is make accusations because the there is no actual evidence that he did anything against the rule.  Lets blame the cameraman for being in the wrong spot and not being able to show what he was doing.   

Was the routine that he followed questionable?  Yes.    Was there anything concrete that proved he violated the rules?  No.  

[ncwoz]

Regardless of how it looks or how improbable it may seem, the fact of the matter is no one will be able to prove Reed "wrong" or "right". As @DaveP043has pointed out, he did everything within the realistic realm of the rules. Any assumptions based on your particular opinion of the guy doesn't change what happened. Sure, if he wanted to cheat in that moment he probably could have, and he'd get away with it. Isn't that why this has to be a "gentleman's game" after all? It's not realistic to have eyes on every single player in every single moment, whether they're real eyeballs or cameras.

Sometimes I don't totally understand the fury people have for the guy. Has he cheated in the past, and am I not a huge fan of him because of that? Sure. But when you cheat, you run the risk of getting caught. Every time you're caught, you get assessed the appropriate penalty as laid out in the rules. If the rules say it's a one stroke penalty and you think it should be 20 strokes and 5 years in prison, you're gonna have to take that one up with the governing bodies. Just my two cents I guess.

Anyways, I'm really pulling for Tony to pull this thing out. Seems like a great guy and I'm starting to really feel bad for all the additional pressure he must be feeling.

[Chip Strokes]

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

So if he didn't call the rules official over you would be fine with what he did?   At this point, all that can be done is make accusations because the there is no actual evidence that he did anything against the rule.  Lets blame the cameraman for being in the wrong spot and not being able to show what he was doing.   

Was the routine that he followed questionable?  Yes.    Was there anything concrete that proved he violated the rules?  No.  

that’s a good question. 

i think not knowing the ball bounced would really hurt his case if he went that route  

its within the rules to determine an embedded ball and take a drop. he could’ve proceeded without calling over an official, but the video later showing the bounce would have blown things sky high. 

my thought is that upon hearing the ball didn’t bounce, reed was thinking “ok cool, stress free legal drop”

like you say, can a violation be proven? nope.  but that’s where guys like Reed live: in that unprovable gray area  

 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

I’m hoping Rory can go on a run for my Fantasy team but if not I’m rooting for Tony. He is just too good to not have more wins. 
 

As far a Reed goes, I would comment but it seems like a waste of breathe. Those that believe he cheated aren’t gonna change their mind and give his past as a deciding factor and those that think he was following the rules can’t be proven wrong.  At this point nobody can prove he cheated or not and it is arguing for the sake of arguing. 

[cnosil]

6 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

that’s a good question. 

i think not knowing the ball bounced would really hurt his case if he went that route  

its within the rules to determine an embedded ball and take a drop. he could’ve proceeded without calling over an official, but the video later showing the bounce would have blown things sky high. 

my thought is that upon hearing the ball didn’t bounce, reed was thinking “ok cool, stress free legal drop”

like you say, can a violation be proven? nope.  but that’s where guys like Reed live: in that unprovable gray area  

 

If the volunteer had said the ball bounced,  I don't think this debate would be happening.  No one volunteered the information that the ball bounced and it wasn't until replay was viewed that it was determined that the ball bounced.      

Now change the perspective and  look at the rules during a general tournament where there are no camera's or you are a player that isn't being filmed because it is too early.   You ask people if it bounced or there are are no people available to ask.   You tell your partners you are going to lift your ball and you do what Reed  and the rules official did,  you feel for a lip in the soil and they found one.   Did Patrick's ball make the impression?  Did Patrick's fingers?  Did a ball that hit there earlier in the week?    

I understand what people are saying and we even make these kind of judgements in other areas outside of golf.   

[cnosil]

Just saw the video of Rory at 18.    The video showed the ball bounced so it could not have embedded.  Let's DQ Rory.   

 

[ncwoz]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

Here is a response to that tweet and the analysis that in my opinion that really should be done and that the above tweet is wrong.   

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tony-finau-closing-it-out-and-lou-is-wrecking-golf/id1543363295?i=1000507077657

Fantastic listen by the way, thanks for sharing! 

[cnosil]

Now Chamblee is justifying Rory's cheating by saying it was a low spot and could have more water.  I think Rory avoided calling over the rules official because it wasn't really embedded.  

 

Now being serious,  I don't think either player violated the rules. 

[Shankster]

I knew I should have made some different roster choices... 

[Shankster]

Just now, cnosil said:

Now Chamblee is justifying Rory's cheating by saying it was a low spot and could have more water.  I think Rory avoided calling over the rules official because it wasn't really embedded.  

 

Now being serious,  I don't think either player violated the rules. 

They just need an antagonist, and Patrick Reed is unfortunately stepped into their trap.

I’ll be the first to say, I did not care for him to win the Masters... I actually tried to will his ball in the water, which I believe Kenny B pointed out was a terrible use of post number 9000 I believe. 
 

anyways... regardless of how much they try to bury the guy, he keeps on coming back, takes it on the chin, and continues to play good golf.

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

I am by no means a rule guy but looking at both Rory and Reed’s handling of their situations were in my eyes the same. Reed has a reputation and once you have they you’ll never shake it. To bad so sad, doesn’t negate the fact he’s playing good golf

[FrogginBullfish]

Here's a statement from the Tour on both Reed and Rory's situations...

“It was reasonable for both players to conclude – based on the fact that they did not see the ball land, but given the lie of the ball in soft course conditions – that they proceed as the rule allows for a potential embedded ball."

“Both players took proper relief under the [rules]. The committee is comfortable with how both players proceeded given the fact that they used the evidence they had at the time."

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[Buffly]

There are some great comments from the collective on this embedded ball debate. Thank you to @DaveP043 and @cnosil for highlighting excellent points. 

Is there anything wrong with this statement: "All professional golfers are models of perfection and never make mistakes, poor judgement calls, or bad golf shots."?

The end of all the debate is that pro golfers are entertainers - we, as golf fans, want to see excellent players playing manicured courses under the guise of competition. Networks exist to sell advertising. Players have bills to pay. 

I don't believe neither Reed nor Rory intentionally cheated. I am all for the players taking full advantage of the rules, especially following the inclement weather the previous day. 

The common rules I use when I play are:

• relief from unusual ground/turf conditions when I find brown patches in the fairway 
• relief from man made obstructions for line of sight relief
• cart path relief
• life clean and place in muddy conditions

I am more surprised at the lack of great scoring Sat in good conditions. I can only image the weather the previous day drained some of the player's stamina where the players ran out of steam in the second half of their round?

[pulledabill]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

Just saw the video of Rory at 18.    The video showed the ball bounced so it could not have embedded.  Let's DQ Rory.   

 

Where is that video? I cant find it. 

[pulledabill]

4 minutes ago, pulledabill said:

Where is that video? I cant find it. 

Nevermind...I see its up on youtube. 

[tchat07]

CBS we get it. Why arent we watching golf and instead watching interviews with 6 different people talking about yesterday when the rules were followed.

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[sirchunksalot]

Just now, tchat07 said:

CBS we get it. Why arent we watching golf and watching interviews with 6 different people talking about yesterday when the rules were followed.

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You'd think they would discuss it while we watch the players. 

[tchat07]

You'd think they would discuss it while we watch the players. 

Guarantee we have to go through that again as long as he stays in contention.

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[fixyurdivot]

Throughout the ages we've had various forms of vigilantism... social media is but the latest in that succession. Anyone think their favorite players have never outright cheated or stretched the rules?  Don't think they may have ever grounded a club in the deep rough that cause their ball to move and opted not to call themselves on it, taken an extra couple of inches on that driver length relief to avoid a bad patch of turf, etc.?  Just imagine what we might have seen back in days before on the course media saturation.  

 

[revkev]

I don’t care - they have officials on the ground to make rulings and that’s what I will go by.

I am so exhausted by this so called coverage - every time I look up there’s someone talking about none current pay in the tournament stuff.

Ridiculous IMO


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[GolfSpy_BNG]

6 minutes ago, revkev said:

I don’t care - they have officials on the ground to make rulings and that’s what I will go by.

I am so exhausted by this so called coverage - every time I look up there’s someone talking about none current pay in the tournament stuff.

Ridiculous IMO


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Good thing Nobilo is commentating to let us know every time Reed hits a shot out of the rough that it did in fact bounce first!  What a joke. 

[FrogginBullfish]

I do find it fascinating how many people are using the replay camera angle to defend Rory's drop versus Patrick's, but when Patrick used camera angles in his defense for the bunker incident no one was having any of it.

To be clear, I am not saying either of them cheated yesterday. It's more the different reaction given the polar opposite reputations of the players involved that I find fascinating for what amounted to the same incident for both.

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[gobama84]

Richy Werenski killed me today. +7  WOW

 

 

 

[Rickp]

Sure do like the Camera Drones. Give a completely different view of the golf course.
I’ve never been to Torrey Pines so this perspective is great.


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[revkev]

Good thing Nobilo is commentating to let us know every time Reed hits a shot out of the rough that it did in fact bounce first!  What a joke. 

“No Frank, you’re wrong.” From the CBS rules expert. Best line of the week.

I’m not a huge Reed fanboy - he’s on my fantasy team again because I’ve twice gotten him in a spot where he was the best value.

His wife and my oldest daughter have the same name too. :)


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[DaveP043]

I'm signed up for a virtual USGA rules seminar in March, I wonder if CBS would spend a few bucks to get the announcers some rules education.  Or if the announcers care enough to try to learn something.

[revkev]

What the F for Rahm - doesn’t he realize there are fantasy points on the line, here?


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