MGS's Steel vs. Graphite Shafts Debate

[fixyurdivot]

I just received the email from HQ with the YT link to Adams discussion on the steel vs. graphite shaft debate.  When I try to open it says video unavailable.  Anyone been able to view this?  Has the debate been settled?

Well, I didn't see the subsequent email saying, in effect, we're not ready to settle the debate .

Okay, maybe this is a marketing ploy to get the juices flowing?  If so, it worked... I WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER!!

[GolfSpy_BNG]

I got both emails too. 

[cnosil]

My guess is that the email isn't supposed to go out until tomorrow or soon thereafter.   As a result they just made the video not accessible.  

[fixyurdivot]

This steel vs. composite in iron shafts is of particular interest to me.  It seems most feel that the vast majority of amateur players will not see a loss in distance or accuracy, and the delineation point being players with pro level average swing speeds.  I'm guessing this is at least one point that will be raised in this analysis... but perhaps not?  What are your guesses as to what will be revealed?

[cnosil]

43 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

 

This steel vs. composite in iron shafts is of particular interest to me.  It seems most feel that the vast majority of amateur players will not see a loss in distance or accuracy, and the delineation point being players with pro level average swing speeds.  I'm guessing this is at least one point that will be raised in this analysis... but perhaps not?  What are your guesses as to what will be revealed?

My guess is that the video will indicate that graphite is better at all speeds, they are more versatile, and players can get better control from them.  

[Golfweasel]

The video referred to the new Fujikura Axiom graphite iron shafts. It has the VeloCore tip section. Supposed to be as good as steel for dispersion. Pretty expensive ($100+ per shaft)

[Kenny B]

I saw the video.  Seemed like a MGS sales pitch for Fujikura.  The shafts are quite expensive but will probably be great for players with higher swing speeds; dispersion similar to steel, so no flyers typical of OEM graphite shafts.  I doubt that lower swings speeds will notice much difference.

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

I saw the video.  Seemed like a MGS sales pitch for Fujikura.  The shafts are quite expensive but will probably be great for players with higher swing speeds; dispersion similar to steel, so no flyers typical of OEM graphite shafts.  I doubt that lower swings speeds will notice much difference.

So you're saying "Bill, given what I've seen of your golf game prowess, it wouldn't matter if your used steel, graphite, or hickory" 

Also, where are you guys seeing the video?  Are you using the link provided in the Bennett Golf email, or??

[GolfSpy_APH]

I for one am very curious about graphite as an option.

Especially the Axiom. 

Not able to justify the price, but do think graphite has come a long way.

 

[cnosil]

9 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Also, where are you guys seeing the video?  Are you using the link provided in the Bennett Golf email, or??

apparently, the video was accessible for a period of time. After the mistake was found, the video was disabled; some of us have to wait. 

[GolfSpy BOS]

I am curious about this too.  As more and more mid and heavy weight graphite irons shafts become available I've been meaning to try them out.  I didn't catch the video on its pre-release like some of you did, so I'll have to wait... but really I think we all know it will come down to you and your fitting.  I have no doubt that down the road as technology changes graphite will become more and more common among elite players.

Next time I go get fit for irons I'll be seeing if there are any graphite options that may fit me, but I do love the Modus 120x feel.

[fixyurdivot]

6 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I for one am very curious about graphite as an option.

Especially the Axiom. 

Not able to justify the price, but do think graphite has come a long way.

 

Accra ICWT's were the best I tested during my TrueSpec fitting.  It was a toss-up between the Recoils and MMT's, but the Accra stood alone; particularly dispersion.  They were a pretty hefty price increase and, as dumb as it sounds, I disliked the excessive, blingy logo/labeling.  For even more $$$ color and labeling could be customized.

During my recent demo days testing of the Cobra ForgeTec X with KBS shafts, I asked the fitter his thoughts between the MMT's and KBS.  He said KBS are better, more consistent from a quality controlled standpoint. I found that interesting since the TrueSpec fitter said the same exact thing when I asked about the MMT vs. Recoils .

[fixyurdivot]

3 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

I am curious about this too.  As more and more mid and heavy weight graphite irons shafts become available I've been meaning to try them out.  I didn't catch the video on its pre-release like some of you did, so I'll have to wait... but really I think we all know it will come down to you and your fitting.  I have no doubt that down the road as technology changes graphite will become more and more common among elite players.

Next time I go get fit for irons I'll be seeing if there are any graphite options that may fit me, but I do love the Modus 120x feel.

Make sure to try the Rebar's Bryan.  They now offer them in patina finish as well 

[GolfSpy BOS]

12 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Make sure to try the Rebar's Bryan.  They now offer them in patina finish as well 

you've got me confused with @Chip Strokes.  I use the Modus 120 because I have feelings... errr because I like feel in my shaft... 

 

I am a sucker for a nice patina finish though. 

[GolfSpy AFG]

I'm a huge Steelfiber fan because not only did I pick up yards and spin, but my golfer's elbow went away almost immediately after I made the switch.  In my experience they are a little harder to work with from a fitting/club-building perspective, but overall they're a superior shaft (at least for me).

I'm as curious about this new Fuji offering as the rest of you...

[fixyurdivot]

41 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

I'm a huge Steelfiber fan because not only did I pick up yards and spin, but my golfer's elbow went away almost immediately after I made the switch.  In my experience they are a little harder to work with from a fitting/club-building perspective, but overall they're a superior shaft (at least for me).

I'm as curious about this new Fuji offering as the rest of you...

Steelfiber didn't work for me but I must say that from a product name standpoint, competing in a steel dominant market... pure genius! 

[chisag]

9 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Not able to justify the price, but do think graphite has come a long way.

 

... Graphite iron shafts surpassed steel long ago. Too many older players have an opinion based on the original OEM graphite iron shafts that were light with very high torque designed for slower swing speeds that needed more height. But once Aldila released the original Tour NV as an alternative to Dynamic Gold with the same 130gm weight but even less torque at 1.5*  the barn door was wide open. While steel obviously gets the job done their price has risen and the difference between the top steel shafts and graphite isn't that much and in some cases steel is more expensive. The best ball strikers in the world on the LPGA predominantly play Steelfiber shafts including Nelly Korda, JY Ko, Lydia Ko and hard hitting A Jutanugarn. They obviously get their shafts for free and I doubt many will be switching to Axiom so it will be interesting to see what the players that more resemble most better Ams swing play in their irons. This is where I think the Axiom might hurt the iron market as some will assume the $125 price tag is indicative of graphite iron shaft prices.

... I think the best way to view graphite iron shafts is compare them to driver shafts. There is only so much you can do with a steel driver shaft which is why they have been completely replaced. Graphite can vary any parameter like weight, flex point, tip stiffness, torque and over all feel. OEMs can change one parameter or several so the ability to build a shaft that fits a particular player is limitless and much more accurate than steel. When a super tech nerd like Dechambeau chooses graphite for his irons you know there is a technical superiority. 

[funkyjudge]

3 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Accra ICWT's were the best I tested during my TrueSpec fitting.  It was a toss-up between the Recoils and MMT's, but the Accra stood alone; particularly dispersion.  They were a pretty hefty price increase and, as dumb as it sounds, I disliked the excessive, blingy logo/labeling.  For even more $$$ color and labeling could be customized.

During my recent demo days testing of the Cobra ForgeTec X with KBS shafts, I asked the fitter his thoughts between the MMT's and KBS.  He said KBS are better, more consistent from a quality controlled standpoint. I found that interesting since the TrueSpec fitter said the same exact thing when I asked about the MMT vs. Recoils .

As an independent clubfitter with more than 30 years experience (including more than 300 to 400 iron sets fitted and built using most brands of graphite iron shafts), I concur with those comments that you received from those fitters. Although the Mitsubishi MMT shafts are by no means “bad” shafts, I have found that the elevated cost nowhere near matches the performance and consistency that they provide.  In addition, the torque numbers on the MMT shafts is quite high, even in the heavier weights. This can be particularly problematic for harder swinging golfers.

Over the last 5 years, I have found that the KBS TGI (Tour Graphite Iron) shafts are far-and-away the most consistent graphite iron shafts that I have worked with. This applies to weights ranging from 70 grams to 100+ grams. KBS’s higher-torque Player’s Graphite (PGI) iron shafts are also extremely good, and a relative bargain. 

After the KBS TGI shafts, my next choice would probably be the ACCRA ICWT graphite iron shafts, although the cost is up there in the same range as the MMT iron shafts.

 I can’t wait for the new Fujikura AXIOM graphite iron shafts with VeloCore to hit the market in the next week or two, but those shafts will be very expensive ($105 to $125 per shaft retail, depending on weight).

Edited February 27, 2023 by funkyjudge

[wanabe]

As an older player (73) whose body has been reconfigured quite a bit over the last 10/12 years (both hips, quad heart, hernia, back fusion) I switched to graphite years ago.  I find that they feel better (for me) at impact and I can't say I notice any diffence in control, but I swing much slower now so I can't say how this relates to someone swinging at over 100 (heck, even over 90 for that matter -- I'm mid 80's).  If prices continue to come down for good quality shafts I can't see why graphite won't become as widely used as steel.  As someone noted earlier, I think one of the issues graphite faces is a poor reputation based on many years ago.  I find you can get a pretty good graphite irons shaft now for $15 per shaft, still more than some steel, but only about half as much as some of the higher end steel shafts.  For those who have lost club head speed or have physical isues (for ex. arthritis in hands or elbow) graphite can be quite helpful.

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Another ol frt here.  4 yrs ago I finally went for a fitting, in Carlsbad, CA, just yards away from HQ of Callaway, Titleist, etc.  I assume the Carlsbad Golf Center is run by xlnt people.  I have elbow issues too, I can hit steel shafts in wedges, but, as I've said before I LOVE the Recoil Smac Wrap ES 780 in F3 flex on Ping I 500 6 iron thru W that Dan fiited me.  I also like Recoils in Mizu 5 "rescue" style hybrid and Mizu 3 hybrid drivng iron (MP 18 MMC).  When doing these fittings, the recoils worked better than ohter brand graphite he put in my hands.  I just got a used Steelfiber wedge on a PXG that felt even better in short swings, have not gone outside yet to hit it, it was a "lucky" find used for way too much money but what the hey.

 

If I have a good few months in the stock market, I will take a whoosh as ACCRA and Steelfiber shafts.  After the floods.  Apres nous le deluge.  I doubt the new Fuji iron shafts are for me, I don't swing hard enough to twist the tips on my iron swings.  Unless I hit a rock or a croc.

[fixyurdivot]

 

 

[richk9holes]

I'm a big advocate of using both. I've had ping g25 irons in graphite and I can game them 5-9i. But I absolutely need PW and higher lofts with a steel shift. When I swing a wedge with a graphite shaft I lose all feel for my short game. When I started testing hybrid clubs with different shafts I found the aerotech steelfiber and have them in a 20° and 25° where I transition to mid-high launch steel shafts at 6i.

I've always had graphite shafted driver for as long as I can remember and was once a big devotee to Adam's tight lies with graphite for rescue clubs above my 3i-9i CG ta3 with steel pistol shafts I learned to play with so I guess I'm accustomed to having a transition to steel somewhere in that 150-160 yard range. As I've gotten older and better at striking the ball I've made sets the same way without really thinking about it. My 6i now flies like my 3i back then so it plays like a driving iron and the tight lies rescue has been replaced by some nice hybrids I can control from 160-190 yards now that I'm hitting more fairways, and also use as a rescue off a tree root every now and then.

[Luke James]

I prefer graphite shafts over steel shafts because they provide more control, increased accuracy and better distance. Graphite shafts also help to reduce vibration on impact which is beneficial to my game. They are lighter than steel shafts making them easier to swing and they are also more forgiving when it comes to mis-hits. Overall, graphite shafts just feel better for me personally and that's why I choose them over steel! However, you should base your decision on what feels best for your game and what helps you perform at your peak.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Luke James

[bekgolf]

I went to graphite last year when tendonitis wouldn't go away.  I love the feel of steel but had to change.  The only two graphite shafts I was able to try were the KBS TGI 80 and Project X Catalyst. 

The KBS just didn't feel right to me unless I went all out with a max effort swing.  The Catalyst 80g 6.0 is right on the money even with an aggressive transition.  The lighter weight (60g) Catalyst were like a different shaft, I'd have to really swing with a smooth tempo to get them to work and I have a hard time with a smooth tempo so they weren't the shaft for me. 

Night and day difference between the same shaft (maybe only the same in name only?) but I'm glad I gave the 80g Catalyst a chance.  Too bad they stopped making them.  I picked a couple of shafts up in a closeout sale just in case I need one sometime in the future.  I wonder if the Aerotech purchase by Trutemper had something to do with it?

This looks interesting https://www.truetempersports.com/en-us/golf/vrtx-graphite-iron-shaft.html#  It appears to be a new post steelfiber acquisition shaft using steelfiber technology.  It's listed as being only for club fitters and that there is no designated flex. 

[fixyurdivot]

On 2/26/2023 at 4:12 PM, fixyurdivot said:

I just received the email from HQ with the YT link to Adams discussion on the steel vs. graphite shaft debate.  When I try to open it says video unavailable.  Anyone been able to view this?  Has the debate been settled?

Well, I didn't see the subsequent email saying, in effect, we're not ready to settle the debate .

Okay, maybe this is a marketing ploy to get the juices flowing?  If so, it worked... I WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER!!

Bump.  Any one close to MGS's neural-center have any inside information on when this question/study/evaluation will become available? Has HQ decided this was a bad idea and abandoned the whole thing?  How about an update in the next NPG Podcast?  It's been over 2 months and...

I sent Adam and and Tony an email yesterday inquiring about status.

[jbsap]

Out of curiosity, has anyone hit the dynamic gold 105 x100 that can compare it to the mmt 105 tx?  I know theres a 7 gram difference in raw weights, but I'm curious if performance is similar between the two?  I am interested in making the change to graphite for my new set of p770's and I've heard good things from a friend who has the mmt 95 stiffs in his p790's.  I'm left handed to even hitting his to get somewhat of an idea isn't an option.

[RickyBobby_PR]

23 minutes ago, jbsap said:

Out of curiosity, has anyone hit the dynamic gold 105 x100 that can compare it to the mmt 105 tx?  I know theres a 7 gram difference in raw weights, but I'm curious if performance is similar between the two?  I am interested in making the change to graphite for my new set of p770's and I've heard good things from a friend who has the mmt 95 stiffs in his p790's.  I'm left handed to even hitting his to get somewhat of an idea isn't an option.

When it comes to shafts performance is going to vary golfer to golfer based on how the weight and balance of the shaft are and how sensitive one is to these changes. It’s also about the shaft profile. 7grams isn’t a lot but it could be enough for one person to have the feel thrown off and it affect their swing.

The design of the two shafts are different and unfortunately the only way to tell if they will work for you or not is to test them. That may mean going to a demo day and hitting them, do a fitting or a blind buy.

The other downside for you here is the number of members on this site that have x100 or played them is going to be extremely low, my guess is you could count them on one hand.

[fixyurdivot]

Almost 4 months later, I'm beginning to think this report is never going to happen.  It's Kaput.  Anyone have any status... anyone? 

[cnosil]

41 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Almost 4 months later, I'm beginning to think this report is never going to happen.  It's Kaput.  Anyone have any status... anyone? 

I've asked,   I think you should forget about it. 

[fixyurdivot]

Just now, cnosil said:

I've asked,   I think you should forget about it. 

Me too.  Out of curiosity, what was the response?  It's a great topic and one that I think lots of us have questions about and would like to see some test data on.