Tour lays the hammer: Indefinite Suspension for all players who participate in LIV

[GaDawg]

14 minutes ago, Middler said:

Yeah, the sports world has been so unfair to Phil and Greg - I can see why they're angry...jackasses.

https://playersbio.com/highest-paid-athletes/

What about all the others joining LIV?

Edited June 13, 2022 by GaDawg

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, revkev said:

Is it that simple - the change of the rules?  Doesn't the "tour" negotiate deals with its hosts.  I could be off base on this but it seems as if the players have given up a measure of that control. 

The players have certainly hired people to manage the tour, to negotiate with host clubs and sponsors, to handle rules administration, to do all that stuff on their behalf.  So yes, the players have delegated control of many aspects to other people.   Is it simple to change the Rules?  I imagine that getting a consensus among 200 or more players to make specific changes will never be easy, or simple.    

1 minute ago, Middler said:

While contracts may be their reason, what choice do they have? If they just allowed their player members to play other tours whenever they wanted, with the money involved, way more of the top players (not all) would enter LIV events and supplement with majors and other PGA tournaments to maximize income - thereby diluting revenue from existing sponsors. I don't know how this will turn out, but it's an unfortunate mess...

Yeah, all of the limitations that the LIV players dislike were developed in order to ensure that every tournament would have at least a moderately decent field, which was (and probably still is) essential to keeping sponsors interested.  If the Tour were to grant waivers for 20 or 30 or more top players to play conflicting events, its quite possible that some of those PGA Tour stops would cease to exist.  Could we lose the Canadian Open, the John Deere Classic (Silva IL), the Rocket Mortgage Classic (Detroit), potentially tournaments in Napa, CA, Jackson, MI, Las Vegas?  Who knows, if the fields for those events are diluted further than they otherwise might be.

[fixyurdivot]

23 minutes ago, Middler said:

Monahan didn't come across as confident to me, he seemed tense and defensive - this situation is unfortunate, because of the Saudis motives and human rights record. If it was an attempt to create a rival league that wasn't wholly an exercise in sportswashing this would be one thing, but the money and sportswashing makes it a different case.

The selective application of history and double standards weakens this argument for me. 

[LICC]

35 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

The selective application of history and double standards weakens this argument for me. 

I don't understand this fascination with sounding "confident". He doesn't have to sound confident. He is going up against an awful organization with massively higher funding and without the goal to be profitable or even break even. That creates a lot of uncertainty. He has to sound sure of his decisions and his strategic direction, which he does.

What double standards? The PGA Tour doesn't engage in sportswashing or atrocious human rights violations.

[LICC]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

The middle class wasn't looking to get financially rich but make enough to live a full and productive rich life. The greed in the 80's changed that.

People have always been looking to do better. And it was the malaise and utter mess of the 70's that really changed things.

[chisag]

6 minutes ago, LICC said:

People have always been looking to do better. And it was the malaise and utter mess of the 70's that really changed things.

... I am certainly in favor of people looking to do better as long as it is not at the expense of others. 

https://www.vox.com/2016/5/23/11704246/wealth-inequality-cartoon

[LICC]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

It will be interesting to see if R&A follows the USGA's decision on LIV players. I don't think that's been decided on yet...right? 

You can add many of the decades to this statement... history is rich with greed.

 

That's my key take-away as well. Remember that Tiger challenged the PGA some time back and Tim Fincham made a special trip to visit him and work out his grievance regarding money being made on player image. Phil is just the latest journeyman player to take on the topic, and I think the Shark Tour was just a timely opportunity to get the PGA past their continued lip service and dribbling bread crumbs in attempt to quell the players long standing beef about money sharing (note we can't say PGA and profit sharing and not get in trouble with the IRS). 

Jay and his team have chose the nuclear option and, IMO, it was a bad move.  They could have taken the high ground and figured out a way to allow players to play some/all of the events and still meet their contracts. Good chance LIV becomes background noise and likely fades away.  But the odds of that happening now have gone way down.

There is no scenario where the PGA Tour could allow the top players to play the 8-14 LIV events without severely damaging a significant number of existing PGA Tour tournaments.

[LICC]

5 minutes ago, chisag said:

... I am certainly in favor of people looking to do better as long as it is not at the expense of others. 

https://www.vox.com/2016/5/23/11704246/wealth-inequality-cartoon

The middle class in America today has by far the greatest quality of life of any mass population in history.

[fixyurdivot]

4 minutes ago, LICC said:

There is no scenario where the PGA Tour could allow the top players to play the 8-14 LIV events without severely damaging a significant number of existing PGA Tour tournaments.

Sure there is but it takes an open mind and willingness to work with the players.  Notice all the alternates listed in most every weeks event?  And more could be pulled in to backfill those who chose to play a LIV event.

[LICC]

7 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Sure there is but it takes an open mind and willingness to work with the players.  Notice all the alternates listed in most every weeks event?  And more could be pulled in to backfill those who chose to play a LIV event.

There is no scenario where the PGA Tour could allow the TOP players to play the 8-14 LIV events without severely damaging a significant number of existing PGA Tour tournaments.

[fixyurdivot]

1 minute ago, LICC said:

There is no scenario where the PGA Tour could allow the TOP players to play the 8-14 LIV events without severely damaging a significant number of existing PGA Tour tournaments.

Again, sure there is. They can negotiate fewer than 8-14 events and which ones if they are concurrent with key PGA events. 

[LICC]

4 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Again, sure there is. They can negotiate fewer than 8-14 events and which ones if they are concurrent with key PGA events. 

What makes you think that could be negotiated? It couldn't happen.

[fixyurdivot]

1 minute ago, LICC said:

What makes you think that could be negotiated? It couldn't happen.

Reciprocal questions to you.  We disagree on this (probably a good many things)... and that's OK.  Let's agree not to put the forum though a neck exercise.

 

[THEZIPR23]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Is China and their human rights violations, things like tiannamen square, their current use of comps and entire lockdown of their citizens as part of zero covid and Uighur slaves on the other side of that line?

One could just look at where they hold the green jacket ceremony every year, or the courses that are in The Open Rota. Not exactly poster child for rights. Golf continues to use selective outrage. 

[LICC]

21 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Reciprocal questions to you.  We disagree on this (probably a good many things)... and that's OK.  Let's agree not to put the forum though a neck exercise.

 

To get the massive guaranteed money, the Saudis will require the top players to play in most or all of their events. The players who want the massive guaranteed money will want to play in all or most of the LIV events. There isn't common ground here.

[LICC]

20 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

One could just look at where they hold the green jacket ceremony every year, or the courses that are in The Open Rota. Not exactly poster child for rights. Golf continues to use selective outrage. 

What practice does Augusta National currently engage that constitutes human rights violations? 

[FrogginBullfish]

The PGA Tour is doing what they believe is right in order to protect itself from an outside competitor. Whether the avenue they've gone down is correct or not, only time will tell.

I do think some of the defectors to LIV had been suckered by Norman and his "independent contractor" BS. The PGA Tour has always had rules for its membership and in particular for players wishing to play conflicting events on other Tours. Do you think Samsung would allow one of its cell phone engineers to ask for a release to work for Apple making cell phones for them periodically? Absolutely not. Even the corporation I work for considers working a similar position at a competing corporation a fireable offense.

Yeah, corporations have done collaborative projects with other corporations but those usually come with a benefit for each corporation. There's no benefit for the PGA Tour in collaborating with LIV.

Ultimately, LIV is proving to be a disruptive force already and the PGA Tour will need to adapt to this and quickly. There are some things LIV is doing that I agree with, but there are many others that I don't and to be quite honest, the cons severely outweigh the pros for me to a point where I don't have any interest in watching any of it, no matter how many names they poach from the PGA Tour.

At the end of the day, I love golf and if LIV becomes the future of professional golf, then so be it. There's other sports I can watch and playing golf is almost always better than watching.

[revkev]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Is China and their human rights violations, things like tiannamen square, their current use of comps and entire lockdown of their citizens as part of zero covid and Uighur slaves on the other side of that line?

Perhaps you misunderstood my comment - both are on the wrong side of the line for me - I would not wish to do business with either intentionally. I’m sure that I do unthinkingly though 

[BIG STU]

On 6/13/2022 at 2:52 PM, revkev said:

Is it that simple - the change of the rules?  Doesn't the "tour" negotiate deals with its hosts.  I could be off base on this but it seems as if the players have given up a measure of that control. 

 

@ Chisag I'm really struggling to process the morality of LIV.  There are countless companies that support stuff that I don't like.  I suppose I would get to a point where I would never eat or drink a thing if I eliminated all of them.  Having written that there needs to be a line and for me Saudi Arabia would be on the other side of it. 

I feel as you do for the same reasons you do. I did an impromptu research on certain policies or people companies were involved with. And yes if I boycotted all I could not eat or drink much.

[LICC]

1 hour ago, BIG STU said:

I feel as you do for the same reasons you do. I did an impromptu research on certain policies or people companies were involved with. And yes if I boycotted all I could not eat or drink much.

Do you have examples?

[BIG STU]

14 minutes ago, LICC said:

Do you have examples?

Do not need any examples to prove to you---- plus it would involve politics which is forbidden by forum rules---- and you would find cause to start an arguement anyhow

[Golfspy_CG2]

26 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Do not need any examples to prove to you---- plus it would involve politics which is forbidden by forum rules---- and you would find cause to start an arguement anyhow

The gospel spoken by Big Stu!  oh wait, did I just violate the rules by saying gospel   I better strike that out! 

[BIG STU]

3 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

The gospel spoken by Big Stu!  oh wait, did I just violate the rules by saying gospel   I better strike that out! 

Naah I do not think gospel is forbidden here (WRX maybe) after all we do have at least 2 men of the cloth on here and one is on staff

[revkev]

5 hours ago, LICC said:

Do you have examples?

I’m going to pop in here very quickly. There are companies that promote things that are offensive to me for religious reasons - my concept of morality is defined by my faith. It would be inappropriate for us to start a discussion about who, what, when or where based on that.  It may be the same way for Stu. 
 

You may not object to the things that these companies promote. Some of these matters of morality are certainly debatable and well within bounds in regards to legality.  I’d hate to see this thread locked down because we went there. It’s not appropriate on this forum. People are within their rights to think differently from me on these matters.

 

I could be wrong but I would suspect we’d agree that Saudi Arabia and China have been guilty of significant human rights violations. I didn’t find that question out of bounds at all so I answered. 
 

I think it best that we stick to what the LIV means for Golf at this point though. 

[Hacker1]

I ask a simple question and make a simple point in a very complicated controversial serious issue. Please do no be disparaging political or sexist as that is not meant to be implied or requested in my post below.

Is it possible the PGA / LIV battle is so big (in media and life) because golf is considered a gentlemen' game and you play on your honour for scoring so we have very high ethical / moral standards to adhere to?

This is golf's good stereotype and  current dilemma.

Perhaps the world would be a better place if more people golfed and more governments and business were run by traditional ethical golfers.?

At least it would be a great Deep Thoughts sketch on SNL.

[BIG STU]

14 hours ago, revkev said:

I’m going to pop in here very quickly. There are companies that promote things that are offensive to me for religious reasons - my concept of morality is defined by my faith. It would be inappropriate for us to start a discussion about who, what, when or where based on that.  It may be the same way for Stu. 
 

You may not object to the things that these companies promote. Some of these matters of morality are certainly debatable and well within bounds in regards to legality.  I’d hate to see this thread locked down because we went there. It’s not appropriate on this forum. People are within their rights to think differently from me on these matters.

 

I could be wrong but I would suspect we’d agree that Saudi Arabia and China have been guilty of significant human rights violations. I didn’t find that question out of bounds at all so I answered. 
 

I think it best that we stick to what the LIV means for Golf at this point though. 

Yep you nailed it for me on all fronts--- Yep on the Human Rights thing I feel the exact same way you do for the same reasons and I also know several on here that I will not name that feel exactly like you and I do.

And I am the last person to push my Christian beliefs on anyone

And generally this thread has been civil due to our great members ( in general) and our great Moderation Team. Over on WRX it has became a hornets nest. Mods there are in an all hands mode. Most threads on the subject when one posts have to be approved by the mods before it is posted to the public. Quite a few threads have been locked in record time. One was locked in like 28 minutes.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Due to the last page or so of comments we have to put this thread in a timeout. 

To all I know the LIV issue and its background issues are intertwined and linked. It is just a crappy situation and one that isn't going to go away anytime soon. However we are a golfing forum and the other stuff with LIV is just too close to the politcal debate and discussion we don't allow here. 

I don't like LIV as much as many of you, however this is not the platform for the discussion around the atrocities that have been commited there and whether or not the PGA Tour or other companies have done it before. There are other mediums for discussing these issues with greater details and debates. 

This thread will reopen after the US Open is finished or be merged in with the other LIV Thread once we as mods have once again had yet another discussion on how to handle this sensitive topic moving forward.