79 or 80?

[TR1PTIK]

Hold on guys, a lot of explaining to do before we setup the question...

I played by myself today and had a really good round in spite of the 112* Texas heat. However, on the 5th green (and only the 5th green) there was a running sprinkler creating casual water on nearly half the putting surface. Knowing relief from casual water is typically allowed in the rules but unsure about this particular situation, I decided to hit the putt from where it was. I figured it'd just be dumb luck if I got anywhere close to the hole (about 25-30' away and down a small ridge) and that if I didn't get close, I wouldn't penalize myself with more than a 3-putt since my current average is 1.81 putts per hole and I'm a decent lag putter.

Fast forward to the end of the round when I realize I shot either a 79 or 80 depending on whether or not you count what I actually did from that puddle on the green (4-putt). 

What say you spies? 

Also, if @DaveP043 could chime in with what I actually should have done here, I'd love to know (or not ).

[EEZurg]

7 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

Hold on guys, a lot of explaining to do before we setup the question...

I played by myself today and had a really good round in spite of the 112* Texas heat. However, on the 5th green (and only the 5th green) there was a running sprinkler creating casual water on nearly half the putting surface. Knowing relief from casual water is typically allowed in the rules but unsure about this particular situation, I decided to hit the putt from where it was. I figured it'd just be dumb luck if I got anywhere close to the hole (about 25-30' away and down a small ridge) and that if I didn't get close, I wouldn't penalize myself with more than a 3-putt since my current average is 1.81 putts per hole and I'm a decent lag putter.

Fast forward to the end of the round when I realize I shot either a 79 or 80 depending on whether or not you count what I actually did from that puddle on the green (4-putt). 

What say you spies? 

Also, if @DaveP043 could chime in with what I actually should have done here, I'd love to know (or not ).

I will jump in....80.   If you had been successful, would there be any question?

nothing personal....

 

Curious to see if i get pummeled......

Edited July 18, 2022 by EEZurg

[cnosil]

14 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

Hold on guys, a lot of explaining to do before we setup the question...

I played by myself today and had a really good round in spite of the 112* Texas heat. However, on the 5th green (and only the 5th green) there was a running sprinkler creating casual water on nearly half the putting surface. Knowing relief from casual water is typically allowed in the rules but unsure about this particular situation, I decided to hit the putt from where it was. I figured it'd just be dumb luck if I got anywhere close to the hole (about 25-30' away and down a small ridge) and that if I didn't get close, I wouldn't penalize myself with more than a 3-putt since my current average is 1.81 putts per hole and I'm a decent lag putter.

Fast forward to the end of the round when I realize I shot either a 79 or 80 depending on whether or not you count what I actually did from that puddle on the green (4-putt). 

What say you spies? 

Also, if @DaveP043 could chime in with what I actually should have done here, I'd love to know (or not ).

Rule 16.1d.   you are entitled to take relief from the water.   

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-16.html

If you are following the rules;  you chose not to take relief which is allowed,  you shot an 80 since you 4 putted. 

 

Easy search with the digital rules;  having a copy on your phone or in your bag is what you should have done 

 

[CarlH]

80.  Should have taken advantage of the rule that you knew and taken relief.

[TR1PTIK]

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Rule 16.1d.   you are entitled to take relief from the water.   

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-16.html

If you are following the rules;  you chose not to take relief which is allowed,  you shot an 80 since you 4 putted. 

 

Easy search with the digital rules;  put a copy on your phone

 

The question is where would the relief have been? For pace of play I'm not going to sit there in a non-competitive round of golf to try and figure it out.

In the crude illustration above, the blue obviously represents where the sprinkler was casting water on the green. The white dot is approximately where my ball was and the red dot is the hole. The sprinkler was located just a couple yards right of my ball.

To be completely honest, I have no qualms with claiming the 79 whether or not anyone here thinks it's what I should have done. Considering the number of rounds I've played with others where putts are given, or someone moves a ball because of a bare spot, divot, whatever, I personally take no issue with accepting the idea this was a rare occurrence and I'd 3-putt or less 99.9% of the time.

I just thought it'd be something fun to share with the forum.

[cnosil]

40 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

The question is where would the relief have been? For pace of play I'm not going to sit there in a non-competitive round of golf to try and figure it out.

I just thought it'd be something fun to share with the forum.

Based on your diagram and since you need to remain on the green, I believe the nearest point of relief will be opposite side of the green where I made the yellow mark.   The black circle indicates the area equal distant from the hole and going right would take you off the green.     Ill be interested in @DaveP043 answer.  

 

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

Based on your diagram and since you need to remain on the green, I believe the nearest point of relief will be opposite side of the green where I made the yellow mark. 

Check out 16.1d, which specifically talks about relief from an Abnormal Course Condition for a ball on the putting green.  First, because the ball was on the green, and the Temporary Water was on the green, you get relief for your line of play, as well as for your stance and swing.  Your Reference Point is the Nearest Point of Complete Relief, and the Relief Area may be either on the Putting Green OR in the General Area.  Based on @cnosil's drawing, the NPCR might be just off the green to the golfer's right, rather than on the green to the left.

That said, if you choose to play it, your score counts.  Still, and playing by yourself, I think if you'd taken Relief you'd be pretty likely to 2-putt.  As long as your conscience is clear, go ahead and claim the 79.

[cnosil]

18 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Check out 16.1d, which specifically talks about relief from an Abnormal Course Condition for a ball on the putting green.  First, because the ball was on the green, and the Temporary Water was on the green, you get relief for your line of play, as well as for your stance and swing.  Your Reference Point is the Nearest Point of Complete Relief, and the Relief Area may be either on the Putting Green OR in the General Area.  Based on @cnosil's drawing, the NPCR might be just off the green to the golfer's right, rather than on the green to the left.

That said, if you choose to play it, your score counts.  Still, and playing by yourself, I think if you'd taken Relief you'd be pretty likely to 2-putt.  As long as your conscience is clear, go ahead and claim the 79.

Thanks,  I read the comment about general area but wasn't sure if you were allowed to go off the green.  

[TR1PTIK]

@cnosil & @DaveP043, thanks for the clarification. I'll certainly know what to do next time. 

Like I said, I'm good with claiming the 79, but thought it'd be a good question to posit here. So, in addition to that I'll ask this: My 3rd putt was inside 3' and I took a casual swipe at it but lipped out the left side. Normally, that would be a gimme with most people I've played with. In fact, it's possible the ball would have been scooped up and tossed to me. 

Would it be more acceptable to have simply said that stroke didn't really count since I didn't fully address it and likely would have been given by a playing partner?

Just a fun thought exercise is all.

I'll also note, that if this were my first time to ever break 80 I would be placing a serious asterisk next to that 79 or just call it an 80 as well. I've reached a point where my potential is somewhere in the mid-to high 70's & low 80's with regularity. I've even had people suggest as much when playing with me or watching me at the range. I just suck at scoring...  Usually, poor decision making; especially when my swing is off and then I just start racking up penalties.

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, cnosil said:

Thanks,  I read the comment about general area but wasn't sure if you were allowed to go off the green.  

Yeah, the General Area is everything that isn't one of the four specific areas:  Teeing Area (your tee on the hole you are playing), Penalty Area, Bunker, and Putting Green.  Anyone who wants more information can refer to Rule 2.

Edit to add, this used to be called "Through the Green".

Edited July 19, 2022 by DaveP043