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How much difference does course length make?

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12 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

The questing is are the amateurs executing what they see or the intention?  Should the strategies and intention of a tour professional be the same as the amateur?  I do not believe so.  

I would think that the principles of decision-making would be the same no matter what the level.  The difference is that  the shot pattern for each individual player SHOULD dictate different decisions for each player.  So for me at a 5 handicap with my particular strengths and weaknesses, or for anyone else with theirs, we shouldn't pay any attention to the actual choices of a touring pro, but we should be able to learn from the process they go through in making those choices.

Edited by DaveP043
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12 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

The questing is are the amateurs executing what they see or the intention?  Should the strategies and intention of a tour professional be the same as the amateur?  I do not believe so.  

I think certain aspects of both strategy and intention. For example DJ while he can hit a 30-50 yard shot he doesn’t want to be left with that distance so when he lays up its to around 90 yards. So it’s finding where you are comfortable.

Laying up off the tee to avoid trouble is another strategy that can be utilized. Choosing the right shot type for pin locations...low runner to something in the back or higher and softer for the front. Knowing the distance to front and back of green, what’s the carry number to get on the green. Too many ams laser pin, pick club for that number and don’t account for their ability or lack of to stop a ball near the hole, maybe end up in between clubs and not pick the right shot to give them a chance at putting

picking where to better miss a green might be the biggest one.  

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

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1 hour ago, edteergolf said:

Stop guessing, stop with the pencil and paper, and get the help to get the job done.  

So what do you suggest players use to keep track of their stats while on the course to then put into a database like ANOVA?

ANOVA requires distances for every shot except the tee shot. Do you have all your students measure with a rangefinder and walk off their putts on the green? Or, are you referring to one of the flawed stat-tracking systems current available (i.e. Game Golf, Arccos, Shot Scope, etc.)?


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Fairway Wood: Mizuno ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hyrbrid: Mizuno CLK 19* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: Nike Vapor Pro Combo (4-PW) Dynamic Gold Pro S300
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10 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I would think that the principles of decision-making would be the same no matter what the level.  The difference is that  the shot pattern for each individual player SHOULD dictate different decisions for each player.  So for me at a 5 handicap with my particular strengths and weaknesses, or for anyone else with theirs, we shouldn't pay any attention to the actual choices of a touring pro, but we should be able to learn from the process they go through in making those choices.

As a five you are closer than not to similar strategies.  However, the strategy of any player has to support their strategy to win.  By that are you trying to make a living, trying to become scratch, or trying to take the $5 nassau every week.  

On tour, they are making a living and trying to win.  The requirement is to eliminate doubles, nearly eliminate bogies and maximize birdie opportunities.  They are are required to make birdies.  You can become a scratch player making one birdie a round.  So from the point of view the strategies are different.  I'd also suggest that your strengths and weaknesses are very useful but again, only if they support your strategy to win.  Let's say I get up/down 100% of the time.  I mean every single time.  Now, let's assume, I only hit 6 greens a round and I'm playing on tour. First off I never would have made it to the tour but give me a moment.  100% of the time is beyond world class  short game.  The issue is I've only hit 6 greens and birdies come at about a 20% rate.  I've made on e birdie and 17 pars.  I can't even afford to stay in a camp ground and I lose my card.  The skills must match your requirements as some skills just don't get the job done.  

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5 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

So what do you suggest players use to keep track of their stats while on the course to then put into a database like ANOVA?

ANOVA requires distances for every shot except the tee shot. Do you have all your students measure with a rangefinder and walk off their putts on the green? Or, are you referring to one of the flawed stat-tracking systems current available (i.e. Game Golf, Arccos, Shot Scope, etc.)?

They already laser every shot and it is very easy to train your eye to roughly measure each putt.  You just need to get each shot into a correct range of yardages or distances to get very good information.  I don't even consider the other technologies viable for someone who shoots under 90 if they are trying to improve.  If 90 is the goal you can get away with less specific data.  

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5 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

They already laser every shot and it is very easy to train your eye to roughly measure each putt.  You just need to get each shot into a correct range of yardages or distances to get very good information.  I don't even consider the other technologies viable for someone who shoots under 90 if they are trying to improve.  If 90 is the goal you can get away with less specific data.  

Thanks for the reply. Just wanted more clarification on what you were saying.

I signed up for the 30-day trial and will give ANOVA a shot. I'm certainly intrigued by more accurate stats.


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Hyrbrid: Mizuno CLK 19* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: Nike Vapor Pro Combo (4-PW) Dynamic Gold Pro S300
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27 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I think certain aspects of both strategy and intention. For example DJ while he can hit a 30-50 yard shot he doesn’t want to be left with that distance so when he lays up its to around 90 yards. So it’s finding where you are comfortable.

Laying up off the tee to avoid trouble is another strategy that can be utilized. Choosing the right shot type for pin locations...low runner to something in the back or higher and softer for the front. Knowing the distance to front and back of green, what’s the carry number to get on the green. Too many ams laser pin, pick club for that number and don’t account for their ability or lack of to stop a ball near the hole, maybe end up in between clubs and not pick the right shot to give them a chance at putting

picking where to better miss a green might be the biggest one.  

You aren't wrong.  Couple points

1.  PGA tour players have less than 20 attempts (many have way less and few a couple more) from a 25 yard range between 50-75 yards.  (i'd have to double check but I believe that is the range) Don't let the word comfortable be confused with "good at."  I'm not real concerned about a players comfort.  I'm concerned they place their ball and approach the green from where they are good.  I'd really like that number to between 75-125 yards.  

2. Fly over trouble to get a shorter approach whenever possible even if it puts you in the rough.  Further away the higher percentage or probability of a bogey.  (unless you are in us open rough and very few of us every face usopen rough).  

3. You need the distance to the pin and the width of the green in the area around the pin.  From there you can select the correct target based on the yardage to said target.  

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2 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

Thanks for the reply. Just wanted more clarification on what you were saying.

I signed up for the 30-day trial and will give ANOVA a shot. I'm certainly intrigued by more accurate stats.

It does take some time and skill to really understand how to use the stats but it is well worth it if it matches your intentions or goals.  The hardest part is determining where your stats should be based on current scoring and goals.  Reach out if you need help.  

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6 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

You aren't wrong.  Couple points

1.  PGA tour players have less than 20 attempts (many have way less and few a couple more) from a 25 yard range between 50-75 yards.  (i'd have to double check but I believe that is the range) Don't let the word comfortable be confused with "good at."  I'm not real concerned about a players comfort.  I'm concerned they place their ball and approach the green from where they are good.  I'd really like that number to between 75-125 yards.  

2. Fly over trouble to get a shorter approach whenever possible even if it puts you in the rough.  Further away the higher percentage or probability of a bogey.  (unless you are in us open rough and very few of us every face usopen rough).  

3. You need the distance to the pin and the width of the green in the area around the pin.  From there you can select the correct target based on the yardage to said target.  

For most comfortable is due to where they are good at or at least somewhat successful compared to another distance/shot type.

for many high hdcps they can’t carry something either due to lacking distance and/or playing the  wrong tees but as a result they can reach the trouble so laying back a little bit wouldn’t hurt as much as being in the trouble.

agree with point 3 but even without it looking at a green it’s easy to see that a tucked left pin the miss needs to be right of that.

21 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

As a five you are closer than not to similar strategies.  However, the strategy of any player has to support their strategy to win.  By that are you trying to make a living, trying to become scratch, or trying to take the $5 nassau every week.  

On tour, they are making a living and trying to win.  The requirement is to eliminate doubles, nearly eliminate bogies and maximize birdie opportunities.  They are are required to make birdies.  You can become a scratch player making one birdie a round.  So from the point of view the strategies are different.  I'd also suggest that your strengths and weaknesses are very useful but again, only if they support your strategy to win.  Let's say I get up/down 100% of the time.  I mean every single time.  Now, let's assume, I only hit 6 greens a round and I'm playing on tour. First off I never would have made it to the tour but give me a moment.  100% of the time is beyond world class  short game.  The issue is I've only hit 6 greens and birdies come at about a 20% rate.  I've made on e birdie and 17 pars.  I can't even afford to stay in a camp ground and I lose my card.  The skills must match your requirements as some skills just don't get the job done.  

The same strategy can be applied to higher caps. trying to avoid triples or worse and making doubles or bogey improves their score. Ones level of golf doesn’t prevent them from trying to eliminate a type of score. The problem with some high caps is the mindset of trying to make up for a bad shot or bad hole on the next shot or next hole. 


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

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5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

For most comfortable is due to where they are good at or at least somewhat successful compared to another distance/shot type.

for many high hdcps they can’t carry something either due to lacking distance and/or playing the  wrong tees but as a result they can reach the trouble so laying back a little bit wouldn’t hurt as much as being in the trouble.

agree with point 3 but even without it looking at a green it’s easy to see that a tucked left pin the miss needs to be right of that.

The same strategy can be applied to higher caps. trying to avoid triples or worse and making doubles or bogey improves their score. Ones level of golf doesn’t prevent them from trying to eliminate a type of score. The problem with some high caps is the mindset of trying to make up for a bad shot or bad hole on the next shot or next hole. 

I said if they can carry.  

My findings are that comfortable for most is not where they are somewhat good. 

The mindset of trying to make up bad shots plagues 2 handicaps as well. 

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3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I play with a wide variety of players, and one thing I've learned.  For a 20-handicapper, there's not a single club in the bag that they hit consistently, they regularly make poor shots with every single club.  They may be fewer with shorter clubs, but they're still pretty frequent.  They're going to hit 5-iron behind trees or hazards, just somewhat less often than they will with a driver.  And when they do that, they'll be in trouble 20 or 40 yards further from the hole.  This discussion often gets phrased in binary terms, good short irons v. awful long clubs, but its really shades of gray.  

This is so true.  I've been a 20 as recent as early this year, somehow I've gotten down to 15.3 according to the email I got today from MSGA.   

But I can give a perfect example of this.  Anyone who has followed the PING Long Game Testing thread or read some of my other posts over the past three months, know that I have 100% confidence in my 7 wood.   It is so easy to hit from the fairway, topped or thinned shots are non existent for me with it.

But off line shots aren't.  Monday a 170 yard par 3, I hit it as solid as I can, perfect height, trajectory and line.  so what's the problem....I was lined up wrong, and it splashed down in the lake 30 yards left of the pin.    Next shot was identical except I was lined up the same, and I had a easy two putt from 20 feet for a double bogey.

So two really perfectly struck shots with a club I'm very comfortable with and a double bogey.

Last night in league, almost the same thing, except it line was fine, it just really drew on me much more than normal, as I was set up for a fade, so the double cross led to hitting it about 20 yards left of the green, fortunately I had a good lie, and hit a great 58* onto the green, missed the 8 footer for par, but tapped in for bogey.   But a large part of that was the great shot with the 58.   

Yes, I've tried the above strategy of play for 5 on every hole, and it sounds good on paper, but in reality it rarely works, because par 5's require 3 very solid shots in a row, and how often is  high teen handicapper going to hit 3 solid shots in a row, with all of them being most likely long distance clubs. 

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20 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

For most comfortable is due to where they are good at or at least somewhat successful compared to another distance/shot type.

The interesting thing is that comfort isn't always the same as good.  Johnson is unusual.  From 50-75 yards, he averages about 21 feet, from 100-125 (more comfortable) he averages 23 feet.  A difference of only 2 feet is unusual at that level, but still significant.  For comparison, a guy ranked around #60 in each stat averages 14' from 50-75, from 100-125 he averages 19'.  At that level, 5 feet is a huge advantage.

Interesting to note that many people credit Johnson's improved wedge game for his improved play overall, yet he's still not in the better half in proximity.  Imagine if he got REALLY good!

Edited by DaveP043
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:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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8 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

My findings are that comfortable for most is not where they are somewhat good. 

I'd certainly agree with this.


Driver: Mizuno ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S
Fairway Wood: Mizuno ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hyrbrid: Mizuno CLK 19* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: Nike Vapor Pro Combo (4-PW) Dynamic Gold Pro S300
Wedges: Bridgestone Tour B XW-1 50*, 54*, & 58* Nippon Modus 3 105
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Simple fact for me: course length does affect my scores and my mood!

I usually to play from forward tees as a product of my age, my physical condition, and my skill set.  The latter being the most dominant consideration.

The layout of the course and my response to it come into play on every round, especially the first or second time I play a course. The more U know the course, length becomes just one consideration.

I have had top tracer results for all my clubs and re-check them almost every month or so. So I am able to make a good club selection fairly often.  Now hitting it well is sometimes another matter.

My son plays from the tips, as he should given his skill set.  And, in the end, or scores are not too far apart. He thinks it is best for both our games; I no longer care to to try match my scratch game from the 1970's tips as, simply put I can't and I no longer have a need to prove how manly I am and take away the fun I have playing golf!

My bottom line is play the length best for your game.  Yes, longer courses often don't give a ton of benefit from the fonts.

 


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It's an interesting question and not one with the simplest of answers, I don't think. 6200 yards at two different courses can play very differently depending on weather conditions, course design, etc. I think it's more a matter of whether the course plays long or short compared to its stated yardage.

Does a long playing course adversely affect an average player's scores? I'd tend to think so, but there certainly can be exceptions.

Interesting topic though.

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Something that I just thought about: when I made my first Yardage Book for a course I had played a handful of times, I had it all mapped out. I only planned to hit driver once or twice (but didn’t actually have to hit it at all) and still have a good chance at birdies.

 

However, when I got to the course the wind was blowing 25pmh+ my “plan” went out the window lol. Doesn’t do much good hitting 5 iron off the tee on a par 4 when you loose substantial distance because of a hurricane in your face.

 

So many variables in this wonderful game.

 

 

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Something that I just thought about: when I made my first Yardage Book for a course I had played a handful of times, I had it all mapped out. I only planned to hit driver once or twice (but didn’t actually have to hit it at all) and still have a good chance at birdies.
 
However, when I got to the course the wind was blowing 25pmh+ my “plan” went out the window lol. Doesn’t do much good hitting 5 iron off the tee on a par 4 when you loose substantial distance because of a hurricane in your face.
 
So many variables in this wonderful game.
 
 
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Hit driver as often as possible as proximities improve from closer yardages. The Decade system is hit driver and once you can put a wedge in your hand take on no additional risk. I haven’t found a fault with that strategy.in fact, I’ve seen players improve by hitting driver more often.


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Hit driver as often as possible as proximities improve from closer yardages. The Decade system is hit driver and once you can put a wedge in your hand take on no additional risk. I haven’t found a fault with that strategy.in fact, I’ve seen players improve by hitting driver more often.


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But what do you do when driver just goes south for a spell?

I went through a period of time where I had zero confidence with driver. I was hitting it all off the toe and was actually losing dramatic distance. Hitting 3 or 5 wood was actually longer than toe hook or push block OB driver.


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:SuperSpeed: Training

Pre training max driver speed: 124mph

Current: 130mph

WITB:

Driver: :ping-small: G400 LST 8.5* with HZRDUS SMOKE 6.5 70g 

Woods: :taylormade-small: 2007 Burner TP 3 wood and 5 wood

Irons:  :srixon-small: Z765 4-PW (1 degree flat) with KBS $-130 shafts

Wedges:  Vokey SM7 50/12/F, 54/10/S and 58/12/D

Putter:  :ping-small: Sigma 2 Tyne 4, 32.5", 1* loft

Ball:  :srixon-small: Z-Star XV

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15 minutes ago, ChasingScratch said:

 


But what do you do when driver just goes south for a spell?

I went through a period of time where I had zero confidence with driver. I was hitting it all off the toe and was actually losing dramatic distance. Hitting 3 or 5 wood was actually longer than toe hook or push block OB driver.


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I played 2-3 years without driver because 3w was more accurate.

play to distances off the tee. Figure out how far from the green you want to be and pick club to get to that number

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Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

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21 minutes ago, ChasingScratch said:

 


But what do you do when driver just goes south for a spell?

I went through a period of time where I had zero confidence with driver. I was hitting it all off the toe and was actually losing dramatic distance. Hitting 3 or 5 wood was actually longer than toe hook or push block OB driver.


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Kind of where I find myself right now....zero confidence in driver.  Strongly considering benching it for the club championship next weekend and playing 3W or less off the tee.

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