Golf Spy X - Outted !

[Severtheties]

I'm here because I was enjoying sharing ideas and experiences about golf. And like every other golf site that wants money and free parade of stuff, if anyone questions anything, it's time to suggest the person should leave.

 

With all due respect, I have contributed a lot to your site in a short while, and its people like ME and the other members that YOU depend on to go to companies and say "I get XXX,XXX" # of unique views per month. Please send me free gear. Please send free things for giveaways." When you lose site of this, your decline is here and ready to begin.

 

And if "sites this size" bring in "millions in ad revenue per year," I suggest tapping those funds? You have ad banners and whatnot. So what if they aren't from the largest OEM's? Use that money. $75K is chump change then. 

 

You have memberships. That is asking for people to pay for the site upkeep. Everything after that is gravy.

Been around the block. It doesn't cost a mint to run a golf forum.

 

Accepting a "niche" position in the industry, if it means remaining commiitted to your goals, and being true to members, is not a bad thing. Sites like this get some success and suddenly think they have to be the "biggest." We're here because the "biggest" sucks rocks. Why be them?

 

None of this makes sense. At first, while reading some of your thoughts and feelings on this I thought that maybe you did just like to play "devils advocate" a bit which I can appreciate as I do the same thing. But as this goes on it really just seems like you just like to argue for the hell of it. No one is asking you to drink the koolaid if you will but now its just starting to get out of hand.

 

I haven't been here all that long at all but I've been on this site long enough to get its point. They want to differentiate themselves in that they do not take ad dollars from the big OEM's. Why? Because as soon as you start taking that money and putting that money to use in the running of the site, tests, etc., you give up the ability to be unbiased.

 

For one, those large OEM's expect to see wonderful reviews of all of their "efforts" and if you don't do that then poof, the money is gone. The second issue this puts into place is sustainability. If they don't have that money that they once had that let them do what it is they're trying to do then there is never forward progress. By doing what they are doing there is potentially a large influx of money yes. But I believe that by raising money this way there is a much better chance for organic growth.

 

All of this is simply my humble opinion however...what do I know anyways? haha

[jbil8802]

I feel like we're going in circles here. I think MGS is a "niche". I don't see where Adam is trying to be the biggest golf forum or biggest anything. This is his passion and I respect the s*** out of that. It's fair to say that I've gained way more from MGS than I've contributed. That is why I donate and that is why I want to see this succeed. One day I will be an old, salty, knowledgeable golfer and might be able to repay in some way some of what MGS has offered to me as a young, stupid, and inexperienced golfer. Why should we be content with what we have now? I see no problem with trying to improve the site and mission of MGS. I'm willing to bet he's already put out a substantial amount of his own money and every person that has read this site or belonged to this forum has been a benefactor of it. I have never once felt pressured to donate or buy a membership or subscription. I wouldn't think any less of anyone that chooses not to donate. Some people can't and some people just don't want to. To each their own. I'm still grateful for all of awesome conversations that we're able to have here.

[Undershooter]

I'm here because I was enjoying sharing ideas and experiences about golf. And like every other golf site that wants money and free parade of stuff, if anyone questions anything, it's time to suggest the person should leave.

 

With all due respect, I have contributed a lot to your site in a short while, and its people like ME and the other members that YOU depend on to go to companies and say "I get XXX,XXX" # of unique views per month. Please send me free gear. Please send free things for giveaways." When you lose site of this, your decline is here and ready to begin.

 

And if "sites this size" bring in "millions in ad revenue per year," I suggest tapping those funds? You have ad banners and whatnot. So what if they aren't from the largest OEM's? Use that money. $75K is chump change then.

 

You have memberships. That is asking for people to pay for the site upkeep. Everything after that is gravy.

Been around the block. It doesn't cost a mint to run a golf forum.

 

Accepting a "niche" position in the industry, if it means remaining commiitted to your goals, and being true to members, is not a bad thing. Sites like this get some success and suddenly think they have to be the "biggest." We're here because the "biggest" sucks rocks. Why be them?

 

"At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

I mean this in good fun.

[jaxbeachpackerfan]

Hey guys, cut the guy some slack.  All he basically said in his initial post was that he doesn't like being solicited and felt that this was a solicitation.  Many people share this view.  And, he is entitled to say so even if you (me) disagree.  The increasing vitriol in this back and forth usually has one result, mr_divots will get offended by something or by the volume of it and he won't come back.  Although he had a rough start on the forum, I've enjoyed the bulk of mr_divots' posts and feel that he has been a very informed and interesting contributor to this site.  I'd hate to see him leave.  Both sides have been expressed, so why don't we just let this subject die before it goes too far.

 

I for one, will contribute, I just haven't decided the level yet.

 

Peace!

[Sschaffer24]

Jax,

 

really good points all the way around. I think everyone can echo that point, and as I said earlier absolutely no one is forcing your hand in this Divots.

 

You've made some points I agree with, and some I don't. And while I can't necessarily get behind the whole of your message I think we are better for having you question the motives here.

 

Really though? Thank you for that link GolfSpy X. Those articles were before my time here and I find them really interesting. One thing that stuck out to me? Something I've learned over the few short years in the profession I'm in, and in life in general is that you never have to remember a story if you always tell the truth.

 

Seeing what was written on that page from four years ago shows a perfect message that is completely inline with everything you say in the video, the funding page and in your posts. Someone questions your integrity? Point them to that link. It's a true case in point of the constant message of MGS.

 

Rant over.

 

To turn this discussion to a new and more relevant one (and not the same circle over and over) when can we find some more information on this Project Triangle? That is what truly caught my attention out of the video because I feel it may be the biggest part of what this next journey is going to cover. I for one, would love more information, or at the very least some breadcrumbs to give us something to toss around and guess about for a little bit.

[Sschaffer24]

Also,

 

Plaidjacket look what you started! Haha.

 

All the best guys. Lets try and get along and let each argument rest. We are all grown men here and have said our pieces.

[GolfSpy_X]

Well said.

 

 you never have to remember a story if you always tell the truth.

 

 

[Tony Covey MGS]

Hey guys, cut the guy some slack.  All he basically said in his initial post was that he doesn't like being solicited and felt that this was a solicitation.  Many people share this view.  And, he is entitled to say so even if you (me) disagree.  The increasing vitriol in this back and forth usually has one result, mr_divots will get offended by something or by the volume of it and he won't come back.  Although he had a rough start on the forum, I've enjoyed the bulk of mr_divots' posts and feel that he has been a very informed and interesting contributor to this site.  I'd hate to see him leave.  Both sides have been expressed, so why don't we just let this subject die before it goes too far.

 

I for one, will contribute, I just haven't decided the level yet.

 

Peace!

 

 

We'd love to name the building after you .... 

 

I agree...Divots is entitled to his opinion, and I can certainly appreciate a contrarian. That's certainly how a segment of the industry views what we do.

 

The decision to ask our readers for money wasn't one we made hastily, or easily, but our model is different, and the growth we envision is to a large degree reliant on the support we receive from all of you (it's not like we're getting much from inside the industry). 

 

Yes, club testing is a large part of what we do (and will become a larger part in the future), but our content has, and will continue to extend beyond that. The majority of people inside the industry our s*** scared of...well...anything that rocks the boat. 

 

Certainly we're always looking into advertising opportunities that don't involve the big golf companies...it's absolutely a conflict of interest, and we want no part of that. So Mr. Divots, I'd absolutely be interested in your ideas on other ways to make this work. We've done the estimates on buying all the clubs we test. We've already formed strategic partnerships where it makes sense. We're working on our own space so we no longer have to pay $30-$40/hour to test (FYI - we're about 130 hours deep into a driver test).  

 

We've worked with some of the top R&D guys in the golf industry to help refine our testing protocols. I don't think many actually understand the volume of work that goes into our tests. 141 Excel spreadsheets worth of data. It's tight because it needs to be.

 

Doing things the right way takes time, and yes, it does take money too.

 

Make no mistake, leaving hundreds of thousands in big OEM dollars on the table annually is our choice. We think it's the right thing to do. You don't have to support us in that, but I suspect that nuances of how we operate this business within an industry that would be mostly happy to see us go, isn't something I believe most actually understand.

[Donnierparker]

So you need $75K to tell me that clubs haven't gotten any longer under USGA rules? Really?

What about those of us that came to that conclusion on our own dime years ago?

Sorry, hate being solicited.

America, the land of the free(bies). Everyone wants to benefit but they all don't want to sacrifice

[Undershooter]

Hey guys, cut the guy some slack. All he basically said in his initial post was that he doesn't like being solicited and felt that this was a solicitation. Many people share this view. And, he is entitled to say so even if you (me) disagree. The increasing vitriol in this back and forth usually has one result, mr_divots will get offended by something or by the volume of it and he won't come back. Although he had a rough start on the forum, I've enjoyed the bulk of mr_divots' posts and feel that he has been a very informed and interesting contributor to this site. I'd hate to see him leave. Both sides have been expressed, so why don't we just let this subject die before it goes too far.

 

I for one, will contribute, I just haven't decided the level yet.

 

Peace!

I'm not wanting him to leave, he is just a little over the top with his objection. Mr Divots commentary has been valued but why not just say no thanks, I don't like solicitation if that's the case. It's 100% his right not to donate. It's also not his place to tell others where to spend their money. I hope he stays but the negative comments to X seem over the top. Thus my joke in the post above. At the end of the day, we will all do whatever we want with our own money, right or wrong.

[mr_divots]

Why when asking a simple question like "what is your background" can it not simply be answered, or direct me to somewhere where this info was made available previously?

 

See, when I ask a simple question, like, where is all of this gear coming from, and who pays for it in all your testing/reviews, why can't we get a simple, straight forward answer? It makes me question just how "honest" all of this is.

 

Feels like you guys get plenty of stuff for free, just not as much as you might prefer. So playing this "outsider" role is not especially genuine. No one is "scared" of your site, but if you keep bashing the companies providing the free stuff to test, their patience will eventually wear thin with the ROI they get providing samples for review. And the will decline to do so. So far, Callway, Titleist.

[GolfSpy_X]

Once again, what are you even talking about?  Have I not explained my background on the about us page and 5 years of writing.  Did we ever say please golf industry send us free stuff?

 

Have a point and I will address it, if not please let me get back to doing something I feel deserves some time and energy.  

[Undershooter]

Why when asking a simple question like "what is your background" can it not simply be answered, or direct me to somewhere where this info was made available previously?

 

See, when I ask a simple question, like, where is all of this gear coming from, and who pays for it in all your testing/reviews, why can't we get a simple, straight forward answer? It makes me question just how "honest" all of this is.

 

Feels like you guys get plenty of stuff for free, just not as much as you might prefer. So playing this "outsider" role is not especially genuine. No one is "scared" of your site, but if you keep bashing the companies providing the free stuff to test, their patience will eventually wear thin with the ROI they get providing samples for review. And the will decline to do so. So far, Callway, Titleist.

I believe those questions were answered in earlier posts by both T and X....

[Tony Covey MGS]

Why when asking a simple question like "what is your background" can it not simply be answered, or direct me to somewhere where this info was made available previously?

 

See, when I ask a simple question, like, where is all of this gear coming from, and who pays for it in all your testing/reviews, why can't we get a simple, straight forward answer? It makes me question just how "honest" all of this is.

 

Feels like you guys get plenty of stuff for free, just not as much as you might prefer. So playing this "outsider" role is not especially genuine. No one is "scared" of your site, but if you keep bashing the companies providing the free stuff to test, their patience will eventually wear thin with the ROI they get providing samples for review. And the will decline to do so. So far, Callway, Titleist.

 

I don't think you've actually asked those questions. You've basically ranted about not having answers to questions never asked.

Regarding Adam (formerly known as GolfSpy X)...umm...have you ever clicked the "About" link on MyGolfSpy.com. The background is all there, along with the reasons for starting MyGolfSpy. 

 

I don't think we've ever made any secret about where the gear comes from. When we do larger club testing (Most Wanted) we send invitations to all the golf companies (I believe we posted the actual invite). For the most part, they provide the product (this is not any big secret). When they choose not to participate (as is the case with Callaway and Titleist in this year's driver test) we make the determination whether or not to drop them from the test or whether to go out of pocket to purchase the equipment.

 

This time around we chose to go out of pocket. We informed our readership we were doing just that, and did ask for the financial support in helping up procure that gear. We got some help...not enough to cover 100% of the cost (not even close), but we followed through and bought what we needed to test both company's gear on a level playing field with everyone else.

 

It's fairly unreasonable on your part for failing to do modicum of research (if you count clicking 'about' as research) and then suggesting we're withholding info that we've previously made readily available.

 

And yes...there is genuine fear within the industry about our message and what we're trying to accomplish. We impact the bottom line. This is not my opinion. Quite frankly this idea of genuine influence is something I was a bit surprised by, but within the last year I've personally heard from executives at 3 major golf companies that what we've written has in some cases helped, and in other cases hurt their business.

 

Believe differently if you like, but I can assure you that if you don't genuinely move the needle, two companies don't threaten to sue within 24 hours of a video like ours being posted.

 

Frankly, in this particular area you don't have the first clue what you're talking about. 

 

It's interesting you say "so far Callaway and Titleist". Again...there is an ebb and flow in what is very much a what have you done for me lately. As long time readers would know, at any given time we generally have two companies who don't want to work with us at any particular time.

 

Callaway didn't, then they did...now they don't.

Titleist didn't, then they did, now they don't.

TaylorMade didn't...now they do.

Cleveland Srixon did, then they didn't, now they do.

PING didn't. Now they do.

Nike always has.

Cobra (even under the Acushnet umbrella) always has.

 

I'm trusting by nature, so when my contacts at Callaway tell me there decision to participate has nothing to do with how we've covered their equipment, I take them at their word. There are larger issues with Callaway that go well beyond standard media/manufacturer relationships.

 

And while we're talking about Callaway, you may have missed it when I wrote it elsewhere, so let me refresh:

 

After I suggested that a Callaway graphic promoting Big Bertha as the "#1 Selling Driver family in golf" was misleading and disingenuous, they changed it.

After I called out a video that described V-Series as "For Anyone who wants to hit the ball farther" (basically I thought it was a middle finger to anyone who just purchased an 815 series driver) Callaway pulled the video. 

True story...both of them.

 

We make a difference.

 

As for Titleist...they participate here and there (FootJoy always does), and that has more to do with their own branding than it does wit us. They like information (all information) presented a certain way, and we don't conform. That's all...no biggie, and certainly no animosity at all.

 

Regardless...I maintain professional, even friendly relationships with both companies...communication channels are always open.

 

And lastly...seriously kid...we don't get stuff for free. Free implies we provide no value. We bust ass and test equipment like nobody else in the industry. Believe that. You honestly think I care about 'free stuff' at this point. 

 

We're so far beyond that...again...you really don't know what you're talking about...and that's fine. It's ok not to know something, and it's ok not to donate, but my god...at least have your facts in order.

 

Accusations and insinuations with no facts to back them up. Damn shame the old Divots is back.

[mr_divots]

It was twice within a few weeks that I was sent e-mails asking for money for this site.

I liked the 2nd one less because it said "meet the owner of GolfSpy." That was not what it was about. And it sucked because I thought this site might be a little different. This is not the 1st time a golf forum has had "big plans" and wants everyone to go all in with them.

 

There are ways to get things done without asking people outright for money. And if this site brings in the traffic you claim, it really shouldn't be all that difficult. But, it depends on the strength of your contacts at the OEM's and other golf companies too, and the strength of your proposals to said companies. You can go at your goals in a more incemental manner. If you're renting LM's right now (why, with your industry clout?) why do you need "multiple LM's?" Absurd. Why not start with ONE and do it without asking people for money. Get creative. Use your noodle. If I had this site traffic to work with it would already be done.

 

And as to skipping millions in ad revenue from big OEM's: take it. Who wouldn't? (And I don't think for a minute that any such $$$ figures have been floated your way. You're not that big a site or market influencer.)

Your message, if you are true to it, would not be affected any more than it already is by accepting free clubs for testing, giveaways, etc. They may stop participating, but that's fine. You'd have much more than $75K to work with in short order, apparently, and you wouldn't have to ask people for these funding drives.

[Tony Covey MGS]

It was twice within a few weeks that I was sent e-mails asking for money for this site.

I liked the 2nd one less because it said "meet the owner of GolfSpy." That was not what it was about. And it sucked because I thought this site might be a little different. This is not the 1st time a golf forum has had "big plans" and wants everyone to go all in with them.

 

There are ways to get things done without asking people outright for money. And if this site brings in the traffic you claim, it really shouldn't be all that difficult. But, it depends on the strength of your contacts at the OEM's and other golf companies too, and the strength of your proposals to said companies. You can go at your goals in a more incemental manner. If you're renting LM's right now (why, with your industry clout?) why do you need "multiple LM's?" Absurd. Why not start with ONE and do it without asking people for money. Get creative. Use your noodle. If I had this site traffic to work with it would already be done.

 

And as to skipping millions in ad revenue from big OEM's: take it. Who wouldn't? (And I don't think for a minute that any such $$$ figures have been floated your way. You're not that big a site or market influencer.)

Your message, if you are true to it, would not be affected any more than it already is by accepting free clubs for testing, giveaways, etc. They may stop participating, but that's fine. You'd have much more than $75K to work with in short order, apparently, and you wouldn't have to ask people for these funding drives.

 

Again with the ignorant ramblings...

 

If you're so unhappy with how we run our business, feel free to go elsewhere.

 

Here are some facts:

 

We don't rent launch monitors. We have a partnership with Foresight. However, while our facility is being built, we do need to rent space in order to leverage those launch monitors.  We were able to form that partnership, along with the others we have because of the traffic you apparently think we don't have.

 

I know what you're going to say:  "nuh-uh, you're not that big".

 

Hard to argue with concrete factual info like that.

 

You really don't think there's a metric s***-ton of money to be gained through conformity?

 

Ask yourself this:

How much does Callaway pay THP to wrap their van and promote them to the degree they do?

How much do you think TaylorMade and Nike pay WRX for full page takeovers?

How much do you think Callaway pays to do what they do in those forums?

 

Now don't misunderstand me. We're not WRX big...we don't really want to be. We run our business differently (for example, we pay our contributing writers, they don't). 

 

There is big print media (Golf Digest, Golf Magazine)

There is WRX and then there is MyGolfSpy. That's the order...without print, without TV attached, we're #2 in the online media space. Again...choose not to believe it (apparently because we don't have TaylorMade banners on the website).

 

Is it your contention that we should take the money and be like everyone else? Why even exist at all? 

 

Everyone has a business model, and I don't begrudge those other guys anything...hell, I like most of those guys. Good people, different approach...no biggie.

 

We've said all along, it is our choice to leave money on the table to do things the way we believe they should be done...ours is a bit of an NPR model...small advertisers and the support of our community.

 

Again...you don't have to support it, but man...It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool...

[hckymeyer]

It was twice within a few weeks that I was sent e-mails asking for money for this site.

I liked the 2nd one less because it said "meet the owner of GolfSpy." That was not what it was about. And it sucked because I thought this site might be a little different. This is not the 1st time a golf forum has had "big plans" and wants everyone to go all in with them.

 

There are ways to get things done without asking people outright for money. And if this site brings in the traffic you claim, it really shouldn't be all that difficult. But, it depends on the strength of your contacts at the OEM's and other golf companies too, and the strength of your proposals to said companies. You can go at your goals in a more incemental manner. If you're renting LM's right now (why, with your industry clout?) why do you need "multiple LM's?" Absurd. Why not start with ONE and do it without asking people for money. Get creative. Use your noodle. If I had this site traffic to work with it would already be done.

 

And as to skipping millions in ad revenue from big OEM's: take it. Who wouldn't? (And I don't think for a minute that any such $$$ figures have been floated your way. You're not that big a site or market influencer.)

Your message, if you are true to it, would not be affected any more than it already is by accepting free clubs for testing, giveaways, etc. They may stop participating, but that's fine. You'd have much more than $75K to work with in short order, apparently, and you wouldn't have to ask people for these funding drives.

I've just been sitting back watching on this one.  It's been a great show with some popcorn and beer.  I really wanted to stay out of it.

 

Divots...We didn't start off on the right foot.  I wasn't a big fan of you for quite a while, but lately I've enjoyed reading your posts.  I think you bring a differing perspective to a lot of discussions and I hope you will continue to do so.

 

However with this post it's clear you have zero understanding of what MGS is about and where they want to go.  It's clear you don't agree with their request for monetary support in their mission.  That's cool, don't donate.  But you are basically attacking everything MGS stands for with this one and saying I can do it better.  if you truly believe that then go do it!  Nobody is stopping you and I wish you the best of luck.  I think you may have already been down that road though.

 

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" - Mark Twain

 

"If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all" - Thumper

[Sschaffer24]

Hckymeyer I had visions of Terrell Owens with your opening line there. Haha. Good one!

 

 

Guys I think this is a classic case of someone talking themselves into a corner, not knowing how to put down the sword, and instead of knowing when to quit, instead turning to accusations to try and save face.

 

It's pretty simple. You don't want to contribute and no one is forcing your hand. As T and X have pointed out multiple times, they HAVE provided the answers to your questions over time and through the About page. It's your job to do the diligence of looking at your resources.

 

That being said, you challenge these people on the facts that they provide, and try and counter them with your own accusations. Where do you come by this information?

If you don't believe they are as big as they say, what leads you to this conclusion? Where do you get these facts?

 

Show me numbers.

 

Who are you to challenge the facts that the people run this site? You say that if you had the power they do, the mission would already be accomplished. It is SO very easy to speak loudly, but much harder to carry a big stick.

 

Please, lay out your plan for us. If you were the powers that be here at MGS how would YOU approach this? Please lay out your plan, and hell, if it's good enough maybe the good folks here at MGS will take some notes.

 

I just have been sitting here over the last couple of days, thinking about this conversation, listening to the what you have to say, staying reasonable and so on. But I have to challenge you now.

 

Over and over and over again you throw around these statements. Calling people out, accusing people of dishonesty. Calling out integrity. Show your facts.

Give us your numbers on why MGS is so wrong it what they are doing, and how they have lead soo many people astray?

 

My guess? You can't do that. You're cornered, you feel like you are being targeted, and are trying to carry a big stick. If you think you can bring these guys down, then do it. Out them in front of the whole forum. Show us your plan and your numbers.

 

It's one thing to disagree with contributing to their fund. Fine, then don't. It's a whole other ballgame to challenge someones integrity.

 

You seem like the kind of guy who expects to buy a car for thousands under invoice, would expect the dealer to bend over backwards and bleed them dry of any available profit just because you are you. Have some respect man.

[Blade]

I'll say it again... This site provides all the credentials you could ask for. What does he need to "prove" that he hasn't already? He's not starting a new site with no history. Everyone knows the story and what this place is about.

 

If you don't agree with the concept, no problem. End of story. No one will argue. But that's as far as that needs to go.

 

You say if the site was yours, all of these plans would be done. Well, you would need to have people listen and appreciate what you have to say to have a site that people visit to begin with. If you could do that you would already have a site that has influence. You don't because you can't do what Adam does. So what makes you the expert now? What are your credentials to make anyone say they should listen to you? Think about it... You have nothing to show for your ramblings. Why keep it up? Just chill. You have nothing to prove here.

[mr_divots]

You're absolutely right. I haven't a thing to prove to anyone. Its why I feel free to speak my mind. And I always will.

[Sschaffer24]

Divots,

 

please feel free to continue to do that. That's why we live in America. I, for one am happy to belong to a place where I can interact with people who do that freely and without any consequence.

[mr_divots]

Look, this isn't the first time you guys have all not agreed with me, and I didn't run with my tail between my legs.

I contributed thoughts and ideas to this site, which people seem to like. I say one thing you don't agree with?

The bitchy talons come out and everyone circles around to pile on. It doesn't take any courage at all to do that.

[Sschaffer24]

Divots,

 

This is the first time I've ever disagreed with you. I've never called you out and haven't "piled on" just because. I've made points because I disagreed with yours. 

[dru_]

I'm not here to pile on, but instead to discuss the modern web-economy, and relate it this project.

 

As a long time, hard core, professional nerd, I've watched the "World Wide Web" go from a super nerdy idea called gopher into the full on digital replacement for traditional media sources ranging from TV to the paper flyer plastered on a telephone pole, and more importantly I have watched a new economic model form.

 

Before we delve into this model, I want to remind everyone of a simple tenet of economics that my high school economics teacher wrote in his chalkboard at the beginning of every new semester. (Coach Ray Manus is an avid golfer too)

 

"There is no such thing as a free lunch" 

 

So, about this web economy we have watched grow, we consider a lot of the services that we have access to as 'free' services. They certainly are free to use, at least in terms of spending cash to use them, however, they are not unencumbered. In each instance, you are paying in non-monetary forms.

 

Let us take a look at some of these services and understand this before we circle back to MGS.

 

One of the most prominent 'free' services that is almost ubiquitous, is the free email services offered by many vendors. While the details of each of these services vary slightly, you are paying for that email service not with money, but with your identity usage. For example, looking at Yahoo! mail, it was started and delivered with the intent of getting the mail users to also use the Yahoo! search engine and drive traffic through their search engines in order to increase visibility of their advertisers, leading to higher advertising fees and higher revenue.  This worked to a certain degree for a while, but no one really capitalized on this like Google.

 

Google has become the darlings of so many internet users with all of their free services, but somewhere in all of this, it is easy to forget just what Google's business really is these days.  They are not a search engine company, they are an advertising company and they do it better than anyone in history. 

 

Every single Google service revolves around two concepts. Gathering as much information about you, and selling that information in a manner that let's them target advertisers to a VERY specific demographic.

 

Facebook? Twitter? Instagram? These are all businesses predicated on the same core business model.

 

When you start embracing the 'free' web, you are not paying for these services. You are not the customer. At that point, *YOU* are the product, the service is nothing more than the bait, and the advertisers that are buying your information are the customers. If you want to flip that equation, then you have to be the one paying the bill.

 

At the end of the day, the web-economy revolves around the concept of you as the product, and it bears you thinking hard about that (and what information you give up involuntarily by the act of web surfing, not even filling out forms, but where you go, how long you stay there and what you click while there).

 

So, how does this pertain to MGS? It is quite relevant. You see what the gang at MGS is trying to do and explain without doing it in so many words, is that they view the player/reader as the customer. They aren't selling YOU as the product to the major vendors, but are instead asking you, as the customer to help supplement the bill and offset some of the costs of the content.  They are doing so in full knowledge that it is both counter the current internet/web culture, but also counter to the 'proven' business model that is so prevalent, not only in the Golf Web, but in the web in general. It is far more analogous to the old school brick and mortar concept of customer service (which is itself a largely dead idea sadly).

 

I think we are seeing the beginning of the end of this web-economy as we know it. The rise of Patreon, KickStarter, IndieGoGo, and others are starting to flip the equation back to the end user being the customer, and letting the fund what they want. Somewhere, 5-10 years down the road, I think we will find a balance in the middle, but at the moment, we aren't there.

 

In the meantime, MGS is asking for our support in an attempt to offset the costs of growing to better serve our needs rather than selling us (collectively, rather than individually ala Google) to their deep pocketed advertisers (while still accepting ads from businesses that are not in a position to exert undue pressure upon the content).

 

And that, to me, is the real question.  Do I support being treated like a patron by a business that I have benefitted from?  For me, that answer is a definitive yes. For you, that answer may be very different. Though I do use Facebook, and Twitter, I do so in full knowledge of the relationship I am entering into with them. I feel confident in my support of MGS, that I do so with a good knowledge of the nature of the relationship I am entering there as we.

 

I would prefer the position of Customer to that of Product. You, have the option of making the same choice, we all do.

[Blade]

You're absolutely right. I haven't a thing to prove to anyone. Its why I feel free to speak my mind. And I always will.

Nothing wrong with speaking your mind, but let it go once you do. It seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing, or trying to "convert" everyone to your way of thinking. When that goes on and on in circles, everyone gets tired of it. That's far different than simply "speaking your mind".

 

You're more than welcome to join in wherever you like, even with unique or differing views. When it becomes confrontational attacks and accusations, then it's no longer worth listening to. Like I said, just chill. This site is about the GAME of golf after all. No view on either side is a life altering matter. Getting all worked up over it is pointless.

[Undershooter]

Look, this isn't the first time you guys have all not agreed with me, and I didn't run with my tail between my legs.

I contributed thoughts and ideas to this site, which people seem to like. I say one thing you don't agree with?

The bitchy talons come out and everyone circles around to pile on. It doesn't take any courage at all to do that.

I believe you already had the "bitchy talons" out in all their fury before any of us started to contribute or pile on as you say. You were not only calling out, but insulting the very person whose site you frequent. And BTW if you want to talk about "courage" then it's pretty easy call others out from the other side of a keyboard.

 

Lastly, if my Billy Madison joke fell into the the bitchy talon commentary then get a sense of humor. No reason to make things too serious on a golf forum.

[Sschaffer24]

I believe you already had the "bitchy talons" out in all their fury before any of us started to contribute or pile on as you say. You were not only calling out, but insulting the very person whose site you frequent. And BTW if you want to talk about "courage" then it's pretty easy call others out from the other side of a keyboard.

 

Lastly, if my Billy Madison joke fell into the the bitchy talon commentary then get a sense of humor. No reason for things to make things too serious on a golf forum.

Amen.

[mr_divots]

I'm done. I hope you guys realize its hard to insult someone you don't know a thing about. (How is that even possible?) That's why I kept it ALL in line with the proposed big plans. Read through it ALL again, and you'll see I don't attack anyone at all, but I do have ideas and objections about being asked for $75K by someone sending me an e-mail inviting me to get to know them, and its just solicitation.

 

I guarantee you, if it was entitled "Our drive for $75K in member donations" on the email, it would have gone straight to trash. Felt it was a bait and switch. And when you ask someone to straight up tell you or direct you where to go to find out, that's pretty easy, isn't it? But no, lotta insulting typing aimed at me that could have just answered a simple couple of questions. Any time I can't get a straight answer, that's odd to me. Especially if you're asking me for MONEY. Got it?

 

You guys have a cohesive group. Because this site is still small. Change that if you like. All forums get contentious when the membership grows and it gets too anonymous. If the goal is a million members, it will change a lot in here. Keep that in mind. I'm one person. What about when there are 300 of me on here? Yeah....

[Undershooter]

I'm a member of many forums/blogs including wrx, reddit, thechive and some others. This and the chive are by far my favorite because of the feeling of community. And you may not have meant it as insulting but it was definitely taken that way and came off as such. It would have been better to never have commented and just pm T or X or another spy if you were genuinely curious about it and had a problem. I know stirring the waves seems to be in your nature but it isn't always the best way of going about things.

[Hula Rock]

We all share the same passion for the game, time to squash this.  Get out there and follow the the little white ball.  Have a good weekend ....