Augusta: If you’re qualified, you’re in!

[MGoBlue100]

 

[Golfspy_CG2]

I could see Augusta not wanting to bring all the drama that would be caused by not inviting them.  I'm sure there will stil be some drama created either by some of the players or some of the media.  But at least AGNC won't be the cause or center of it.  

I did find it interesting that they said they will an annoucment in April regarding future of LIV players.  So we shall see.  

[MacTourney]

Look Mom, the Hatfield-McCoy feud has come to Augusta...

[LICC]

No surprise with this.

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I could see Augusta not wanting to bring all the drama that would be caused by not inviting them.  I'm sure there will stil be some drama created either by some of the players or some of the media.  But at least AGNC won't be the cause or center of it.  

I did find it interesting that they said they will an annoucment in April regarding future of LIV players.  So we shall see.  

You can bet if the pot gets stirred it will be the press stirring it with of course with the blessing of the PGAT

[MacTourney]

When contemplating all the upcoming twists and turns leading up to the Georgia pines tourney this spring remember how extended Augusta's arms seem to be.

Not too long ago Dick Vitale made his broadcasting return from a medical and commented during the telecast that college basketball's season should start later so it doesn't interfere with college football.   The next day I watched an interview with Izzo who was asked about Vitale's comments.   So this could get real interesting as there are swarms of money involved. 

CBS makes a boatload on the Masters, but nowhere near what they make with the NCAA basketball tourney, as far as I know.

 

[Golf2Much]

I'm not surprised by the timing and the announcement.  Why add drama and a distraction by making the announcement close to the tournament date?  Augusta National really doesn't have a dog in this fight.  If you qualify, you are in.  Simple.  That's why the decision of granting World Golf Ranking points to LIV events is an important decision.  Without awarding points to LIV events, their golfers will continue to drop and eventually fall out of qualifying by ranking position.  

[THEZIPR23]

32 minutes ago, Golf2Much said:

I'm not surprised by the timing and the announcement.  Why add drama and a distraction by making the announcement close to the tournament date?  Augusta National really doesn't have a dog in this fight.  If you qualify, you are in.  Simple.  That's why the decision of granting World Golf Ranking points to LIV events is an important decision.  Without awarding points to LIV events, their golfers will continue to drop and eventually fall out of qualifying by ranking position.  

Timing is solely based on invitations going out this week. 

[CarlH]

As it should be!  As Masters winners, they're qualified to play.  Stripping them off that would be totally out of line.  Same for anyone that qualifies for the Open or the US Open.  Past champions have privileges.  Those LIV players who do not qualify by way of past performance should still be able to qualify by the same standards for qualification of any hopeful participant.

 

[fixyurdivot]

7 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I could see Augusta not wanting to bring all the drama that would be caused by not inviting them.  I'm sure there will stil be some drama created either by some of the players or some of the media.  But at least AGNC won't be the cause or center of it.  

I did find it interesting that they said they will an annoucment in April regarding future of LIV players.  So we shall see.  

Maybe they are waiting to see if any qualified non-LIV tour players will start a wildcat strike and opt not to participate.  Time to move on and play-on world wide golf with LIV being  the latest change in its long history.

33 minutes ago, CarlH said:

As it should be!  As Masters winners, they're qualified to play.  Stripping them off that would be totally out of line.  Same for anyone that qualifies for the Open or the US Open.  Past champions have privileges.  Those LIV players who do not qualify by way of past performance should still be able to qualify by the same standards for qualification of any hopeful participant.

 

Couldn't agree more.  Those that do not qualify as a result of joining LIV is completely their decision. Those that have already earned the right should be able to play The Masters and other non PGA majors.

[cardia10]

Overall, it is good for golf that everyone is included. It would poetic justice if Patrick Reed won! Monahan may have to be institutionalized. 

 

[ChuckZ]

The Masters is the pinnacle of the majors.  They do their own thing and do not bow down to the PGA or get into the PGA's squabbles.  Kudos to them.  That is what make them so unique.  Hakuna matata.  Hardest tournament tickets to get, by far.  Maybe them and The Open. The Open has a lottery also.  Augusta National is Mecca for golfers.  

[revkev]

I can't recall the last time that I watched a weekend Master's round.  I'm normally playing golf on a Sunday afternoon and working on Saturday.  I used to enjoy the tournament when I lived up North and courses weren't necessarily open yet.  I do hope that one of the LiV guys wins though.  That would be fun.  

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Golfspy_CG2]

16 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Maybe they are waiting to see if any qualified non-LIV tour players will start a wildcat strike and opt not to participate.  Time to move on and play-on world wide golf with LIV being  the latest change in its long history.

Couldn't agree more.  Those that do not qualify as a result of joining LIV is completely their decision. Those that have already earned the right should be able to play The Masters and other non PGA majors.

AS to the first point, I dodn't see that happening, nobody is going to pass up a chance when invited to play.   They may give the cold shoulder to the LIV Players as they did at a few events this summer where they were together. 

Agree 100% on the 2nd point.  

[D8nken]

Exactly the right decision by the Masters.  I hope the rest of the majors would come out soon with the same position.  The majors should stay out of the PGA Tour - LIV fight.  The best players in the world should play in the majors.  

[ChuckZ]

Once Greg Norman leaves LIV, I believe that it will be welcomed to the PGA events.  Seems to be a personal thing with the PGA and Greg.  Those behind the LIV support a lot of other tournaments around the world including PGA events.  The PGA needs their money and support.  The Masters has really deep pockets as well and can run their own tournament as they wish.   

[Middler]

4 hours ago, D8nken said:

Exactly the right decision by the Masters.  I hope the rest of the majors would come out soon with the same position.  The majors should stay out of the PGA Tour - LIV fight.  The best players in the world should play in the majors.  

I agree with this and ANGC’s position. In essence they’ve largely pawned the issue off on OWGR. If OWGR doesn’t award points for LIV events, the LIV players other than past Masters champions won’t qualify after a few years. I hope OWGR never recognizes LIV events, but we’ll see…

Good article on same https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golfers-are-set-for-2023-masters-but-future-majors-arent-guaranteed

Quote

Ridley’s words suggest they in no way should feel secure about their standing in the Masters—or any of the major championships—beyond the coming year.

While never mentioning LIV by name, Ridley made it clear he’s not thrilled with the current landscape created by LIV Golf’s disruption. The Masters chairman joined the leaders of the other majors—two have been played since LIV Golf launched—who expressed their own concerns in different ways.

When you start a sentence with “regrettably” and go on to say that the divide has “diminished the virtues of the game,” that’s clearly not an endorsement of the current path, however clear he made it for 2023.

The easiest way for the major championships to deal with LIV Golf has always been to do nothing. Invite players as you’ve always invited them. Allow the world rankings to help you establish your fields. Let the system play out.

 

[DaveP043]

29 minutes ago, Middler said:

I hope OWGR never recognizes LIV events, but we’ll see

I believe they'll begin awarding points to LIV at some point, but that based on the field size, no cut, field strength, etc, the points will be pretty limited.  Which means players in LIV will see their rankings diminish over time.  Automatic exemptions will still get a few players in the majors, and players can still try to qualify for the Opens, but thats about it.

[revkev]

On 12/21/2022 at 4:43 PM, DaveP043 said:

I believe they'll begin awarding points to LIV at some point, but that based on the field size, no cut, field strength, etc, the points will be pretty limited.  Which means players in LIV will see their rankings diminish over time.  Automatic exemptions will still get a few players in the majors, and players can still try to qualify for the Opens, but thats about it.

I agree with this.  Ultimately, I think LiV, DP World and PGA tour come to some kind of agreement but it will take some time.  We shall see though.

If I were a player, I would still have a huge issue with cuts the way they currently work.  Everyone is making money off of me and I lose money for showing up?  That makes no sense in today's world.  I'm sure there is some way to address it but if I were a player or better a group of them, I'd be saying, fix it or I'm gone.   Might as well take advantage of this bargaining chip while it's there.  

 

 

[Middler]

2 minutes ago, revkev said:

If I were a player, I would still have a huge issue with cuts the way they currently work.  Everyone is making money off of me and I lose money for showing up?  That makes no sense in today's world.  I'm sure there is some way to address it but if I were a player or better a group of them, I'd be saying, fix it or I'm gone.   Might as well take advantage of this bargaining chip while it's there.  

Not to argue, but what are you suggesting here? All sports have cuts, though other sports players usually have a chance to make a team once a year, or longer contracts. So you object to how frequent cuts are in golf - week to week? Just trying to understand, not pick a fight, I might agree with you as I think about it. It must be brutal for those who rank 75 thru 125 or so.

[revkev]

4 minutes ago, Middler said:

Not to argue, but what are you suggesting here? All sports have cuts, though other sports players usually have a chance to make a team once a year, or longer contracts. So you object to how frequent cuts are in golf - week to week? Just trying to understand, not pick a fight, I might agree with you as I think about it. It must be brutal for those who rank 75 thru 125 or so.

I don't mind the discussion, it's part of why I come to the forums.  Thanks for the question and the opportunity to clarify.

 

I'm suggesting that people get compensated for the work that they do.  I would hardly compare someone in the field of a PGA tour event to a player who is cut from a Professional Sports team.  He's already qualified to play in that tournament as an exempt player, in a Monday qualifier or via a special exemption.  If he were in another professional league, he'd have a salary or appearance fee in his pocket when he showed up. 

 

I'm suggesting that he get that so that he's not costing himself money to appear.  I absolutely love my job, but I don't work for free.  I may choose to donate my services particularly for a wedding when I know the couple well or a funeral where I know that the family is strapped financially but that's my decision.

 

As for those other sports their "cuts" normally come during a training camp, the players who ultimately get cut or sent down to a developmental league are compensated for the time spent in camp.  It covers their expenses and time spent.  Even if they are cut the team that they play for benefits - you need to body to hold a proper practice.  

 

You need the bodies to hold a tournament - the guys who supply them should be compensated.  Had they been perhaps LiV would have never gotten off the ground.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

I agree with this.  Ultimately, I think LiV, DP World and PGA tour come to some kind of agreement but it will take some time.  We shall see though.

If I were a player, I would still have a huge issue with cuts the way they currently work.  Everyone is making money off of me and I lose money for showing up?  That makes no sense in today's world.  I'm sure there is some way to address it but if I were a player or better a group of them, I'd be saying, fix it or I'm gone.   Might as well take advantage of this bargaining chip while it's there.  

 

 

It’s no different than any other independent worker. There are operating costs and you don’t always make money. So yes there are going to be guys who show up week in and week out that will lose money because they are paying travel, lodging, meals, caddy fees and so on and their winnings don’t cover it.

There are businesses that have to pay contractors, employees, overhead, materials and so on that depending on how the job goes they may lose money.

Minor league baseball players, arena/xfl football players, mini tour golfers and various other sports where the athlete isn’t prime time all deal with this.

These are they sacrifices one makes when chasing a dream. At some point the individual has to decide if it’s worth continuing to pursue their dream Or move on. Every player who tries to make it on tour knows and understands this. If they want guaranteed paychecks they should find a regular job that offers this

As an investor in a new business I am spending way more than I’m making to get the business off the ground and will be in the red for quite sometime. I knew the risks when I jumped in and know them as I go forward. It ain’t easy but I’m not giving up either 

[revkev]

26 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s no different than any other independent worker. There are operating costs and you don’t always make money. So yes there are going to be guys who show up week in and week out that will lose money because they are paying travel, lodging, meals, caddy fees and so on and their winnings don’t cover it.

There are businesses that have to pay contractors, employees, overhead, materials and so on that depending on how the job goes they may lose money.

Minor league baseball players, arena/xfl football players, mini tour golfers and various other sports where the athlete isn’t prime time all deal with this.

These are they sacrifices one makes when chasing a dream. At some point the individual has to decide if it’s worth continuing to pursue their dream Or move on. Every player who tries to make it on tour knows and understands this. If they want guaranteed paychecks they should find a regular job that offers this

As an investor in a new business I am spending way more than I’m making to get the business off the ground and will be in the red for quite sometime. I knew the risks when I jumped in and know them as I go forward. It ain’t easy but I’m not giving up either 

I appreciate your points. However the PGA tour is not a start up. It’s a well established money making machine.
 

Fortunately the players now have an option. Before, they didn’t. 
 

I’m happy for them 

[CarlH]

2 hours ago, revkev said:

 

If I were a player, I would still have a huge issue with cuts the way they currently work.  Everyone is making money off of me and I lose money for showing up?  That makes no sense in today's world.  I'm sure there is some way to address it but if I were a player or better a group of them, I'd be saying, fix it or I'm gone.   Might as well take advantage of this bargaining chip while it's there.  

 

 

Personally, I think the cuts server a greater purpose.  It's what makes being on the tour difficult to maintain.  In the early days of professional golf, they had to pay an entry fee to play and often walked away with a loss.  Today's professionals have sponsors, both corporate and individuals providing an income for the player to cover these expenses.  I've known several professional golfers over the years that have gone to the tours to play.  They all had groups of people that sponsored them and they all were paid to advertise by their corporate sponsors.  Yes, they're not making the big bucks if they don't make the cuts and eventually get weeded out but their expenses were being covered.   Those that struggle make way for the next generation.  The world is filled with golfers who think they're good enough to go on tour.  Most, are not.

[revkev]

@CarlH I will clarify that I'm not opposed to a cut or more accurately I'd be willing to consider one.  As a fan if I buy a ticket to a Saturday round and my favorite player has been cut I don't know how happy I'd be but that's a topic for another day.  I'm opposed to the players in the field not being compensated for their time.

With all due respect the guys in a PGA field aren't the ones that you are describing.  I play with the types of guys you're describing all the time.  Private clubs in Florida are full of them.  They are here because they have some game and some sponsors who are willing to back them for a piece of them.  They play on mini tour events, sometimes elevate to things like the Latin American tour even.  Often they get good enough to play in a Korn Ferry event or two or perhaps also the McKenzie Tour - guys on that tour come down and play at my club mid-February or so to get ready for their season - I don't play with them - they are nice enough on the range but they would certainly not waste their time with someone like me on the course - they are way too close to making it and course time is business time for them.

The guys who play week in and week out on the PGA tour have in fact made it.  If there were no cuts, there would still be the weeding out process of players not maintaining their status for the next season.  That happens and that's life. 

 

In regards to the early days on tour there was a time when events weren't televised, there were no driving ranges at the courses that they played, guys had to work other jobs in the winter to supplement their income.  It's a different world beyond a doubt.  But it's not that world and not a fair comparison.

 

There's a reason why a number of players including some top players in the world have defected to LiV.  Of course they are the ones being labelled as greedy.  I think there's more than enough "greed" to go around.  Oh and I'm very unhappy about LiV getting those players, I like seeing the best players in the world play against one another when I'm able to watch.  I don't exactly understand why we aren't questioning the PGA's role in this development a bit more and trying to figure out what changes could be made to get them back.

In the meantime I think that Augusta made exactly the right decision. I have little doubt the Opens will do the same thing and that a LiV guy whose not qualified will be able to go through the qualifying process like anyone else.  If not I'm sure we will see more legal action. 

 

Oh joy

 

 

 

 

[chisag]

2 hours ago, revkev said:

I'm suggesting that people get compensated for the work that they do.  I would hardly compare someone in the field of a PGA tour event to a player who is cut from a Professional Sports team.  He's already qualified to play in that tournament as an exempt player, in a Monday qualifier or via a special exemption.  If he were in another professional league, he'd have a salary or appearance fee in his pocket when he showed up. 

 

I'm suggesting that he get that so that he's not costing himself money to appear.  I absolutely love my job, but I don't work for free. 

 

As for those other sports their "cuts" normally come during a training camp, the players who ultimately get cut or sent down to a developmental league are compensated for the time spent in camp.  It covers their expenses and time spent.  Even if they are cut the team that they play for benefits - you need to body to hold a proper practice.  

 

You need the bodies to hold a tournament - the guys who supply them should be compensated.  Had they been perhaps LiV would have never gotten off the ground.

 

 

... I have compared this to my job before. If I want a ScreenActorsGuild "job" I have to audition. When I had young kids, I had to get a baby sitter or pay for daily day care along with gas, wear and tear on my car, Parking, clothes for the audition and of course my time. If I did well in the eyes of the client I get a call back a few days later and have to do it all again. If I don't get the part I get zero compensation for both days. 

... I look at the first 2 days of a Golf tournament like an audition although the results are not subjective like my auditions. Once they get the "job" they get to work on the weekends and are compensated more than enough to cover their expenses and earn a living. I am not a fan of getting paid for auditioning or missing the cut. It is what makes it so stressful and weeds out those not mentally strong enough to make a living. And in both professions it is very stressful! Everyone would love to be in a movie, on TV or play golf so making it difficult is just part of the process. 

... That all said, I have no problem with SAG and Golf paying an out of pocket fund to cover expenses. Obviously golfers have much higher expenses so they would get more. But it wouldn't be like getting paid, just more like not losing money to compete. Nobody can exist on breaking even so the stress level would till be there and the cream would rise to the top. 

[revkev]

1 minute ago, chisag said:

 

 

... I have compared this to my job before. If I want a ScreenActorsGuild "job" I have to audition. When I had young kids, I had to get a baby sitter or pay for daily day care along with gas, wear and tear on my car, Parking, clothes for the audition and of course my time. If I did well in the eyes of the client I get a call back a few days later and have to do it all again. If I don't get the part I get zero compensation for both days. 

... I look at the first 2 days of a Golf tournament like an audition although the results are not subjective like my auditions. Once they get the "job" they get to work on the weekends and are compensated more than enough to cover their expenses and earn a living. I am not a fan of getting paid for auditioning or missing the cut. It is what makes it so stressful and weeds out those not mentally strong enough to make a living. And in both professions it is very stressful! Everyone would love to be in a movie, on TV or play golf so making it difficult is just part of the process. 

... That all said, I have no problem with SAG and Golf paying an out of pocket fund to cover expenses. Obviously golfers have much higher expenses so they would get more. But it wouldn't be like getting paid, just more like not losing money to compete. Nobody can exist on breaking even so the stress level would till be there and the cream would rise to the top. 

I always respect everyone’s opinion and yours especially. I would say that Monday qualifying is the audition part. On Thursday you are in the show, tickets have been sold, TV revenue is paid out, see what l mean?

I’m not thinking that this appearance fee would be anything more than covering expenses. So I think we are right around the same figure. 

[Middler]

3 hours ago, revkev said:

I don't mind the discussion, it's part of why I come to the forums.  Thanks for the question and the opportunity to clarify.

 

I'm suggesting that people get compensated for the work that they do.  I would hardly compare someone in the field of a PGA tour event to a player who is cut from a Professional Sports team.  He's already qualified to play in that tournament as an exempt player, in a Monday qualifier or via a special exemption.  If he were in another professional league, he'd have a salary or appearance fee in his pocket when he showed up. 

 

I'm suggesting that he get that so that he's not costing himself money to appear.  I absolutely love my job, but I don't work for free.  I may choose to donate my services particularly for a wedding when I know the couple well or a funeral where I know that the family is strapped financially but that's my decision.

 

As for those other sports their "cuts" normally come during a training camp, the players who ultimately get cut or sent down to a developmental league are compensated for the time spent in camp.  It covers their expenses and time spent.  Even if they are cut the team that they play for benefits - you need to body to hold a proper practice.  

 

You need the bodies to hold a tournament - the guys who supply them should be compensated.  Had they been perhaps LiV would have never gotten off the ground.

The new PGA Earnings Assurance Program may help? "The Earnings Assurance Program replaces the previously-announced “Play15” program. All Korn Ferry Tour graduates and above in the TOUR’s priority ranking who compete in at least 15 events will earn no less than $500,000 per year, as the TOUR will fill the gap for players who fail to meet that benchmark. A travel stipend program also will be implemented for non-exempt members (players in the 126-150 category and below). Those players will receive $5,000 for travel and tournament-related expenses when they miss the cut. The stipends will not impact tournament purses."

I don't have any problem with it, and though I can't stand LIV, there's no denying the EAP was in response to LIV...

And I assume most if not all the PGA (and KF) players have sponsors and endorsements, though I realize how much varies wildly from top to bottom.

[revkev]

I do like the EAP and it’s a good response, yes. I just wish the tour had responded a year sooner. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, revkev said:

I appreciate your points. However the PGA tour is not a start up. It’s a well established money making machine.
 

Fortunately the players now have an option. Before, they didn’t. 
 

I’m happy for them 

Nope but the members are independent contractors and get paid based on their performance, not different than any other person who contracts a job. If they don’t complete the work they don’t get paid, or if the job isn’t to satisfaction then they don’t get all their money.

56 minutes ago, revkev said:

I would say that Monday qualifying is the audition part. On Thursday you are in the show, tickets have been sold, TV revenue is paid out, see what l mean?

Monday is to fill out spots that the tour reserves in certain events to those without status. Thur and Fri are the auditions to see if you can make it to the money rounds. If you don’t make it then you failed to complete the job you were brought in to do and therefore you don’t get paid. Once you do make it then you are paid for how well you perform in the money rounds.

Whether anyone considers them as having made it or not because they have a tour card they are all chasing a dream to be a professional golfer. The caddies are also independent contractors and depending on whose back they are on lose money weekly too for the same reasons as the players.

Maybe the pga tour should rent a hotel for all the players and caddies. Pay trace expenses, meals, for everyone with a card and same for the caddies. Then give them all a base salary. Then their commission would be whatever they earn over 4 days from the the tournament purse. 
 

Sorry when one is chasing a dream no matter what the business is they have to make sacrifices to achieve the dream. Some make it and some don’t. Those who don’t have to go back to the real world and work and find a way to make it some other way in life. We as humans were meant to be producers and not takers.