Jump to content

300 yard drives or Never 3 putt?


Recommended Posts

Our Sponsors

3 minutes ago, Cory O said:

That is logically true, but in reality for the vast majority of golfers at almost all skill levels, the full shot is more consistent than the partial shot. There’s nothing wrong with playing to the shot you’re most comfortable/consistent with (but keep practicing those partial shots)

I've always wondered about that. While distance control is logically more predictable with a full shot, I generally have a little better directional consistency with partial shots and I am less likely to thin/fat a partial shot. And I use my gap wedge for almost all partial shots so I don't have to guess distance on all four of my wedges - I only have to "know" one wedge for partial shots.

  • Like 1
  • Callaway Rogue 10.5° 9.5°D & 3W
  • Mizuno JPX900 Forged 4-GW, S18 56.10, S18 60.06
  • Evnroll ER5B (replaced ER2)
  • and 14th club - Mizuno CLK 3H 19° OR MP-20 HMB 3i 19°
  • Snell MTB-X (replaced Black)
Link to post
  • Replies 105
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

If I can retain my current accuracy, from an angular standpoint, I'd take 300 yard drives.  Gaining 50 yards or so would mean much shorter seconds, more greens, better proximity.  And with my current

Both of those would be extremely unusual for a 13-handicap, together it borders on statistical impossibility.  Unless your primary forum is at GolfWRX.  

I’d suggest you read up on some of the more recent course strategy models. Data analytics is showing that it is generally better to be longer than to lay back. Look at your dispersion pattern and if

Posted Images

hmmmm....since i was magically driving it 300 i was assuming I'd magically have the same dispersion as I have at my current distance which is about 270. 

If I sprayed it more hitting it 300 I'd simply hit a lesser yardage more accurate club off the tee on those holes where spraying it could get me in big trouble.

Either way I am still going with the 300 yard drive.

  • Like 1

Ping G410+ 9*, Accra TourZ X265 M5 

Ping i20 17* & 23* hybrids, stock stiff shafts

Mizuno JPX 919 HMP 4i, PX LZ 6.0

Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 5 - PW, PX LZ 6.0

Cleveland Tour Action 49*, 53*, 57*; PX LZ 6.5

Ping Heppler Fetch

Link to post

Never 3 Putt, I have accepted that it is better to be accurate in the fairway than long and in trouble, and 3 putts are plaguing me as of late

with that in mind, post back surgery, I am averaging 218 out of the tee with the driver, but that include a lot really bad, topped, or drop kicked drives that go no where, once I get that worked out, I am more than happy with averaging 220-230 yards with the driver, and take small bites towards the green.

2020 Bag Boy Chiller Cart Bag Official tester

MGS Hard Rock Challenge

100 swings challenge

MGS Fantasy football league

Unnoficial - Cobra SpeedZone Xtreme

 

Drivers :titelist-small:  - TS2 10.5*, :cobra-small: Cobra SpeedZone Xtreme 10.5, UST helium 5

Woods :titelist-small: TS2 3HL. :honma:TR21 4 Wood, Vizard 20-60 shaft.

Hybrid   :titelist-small:  - T-MB 716 3 Iron, Hybrid   :titelist-small:  - T-MB 718 4 Iron, Irons:   :titelist-small:  - AP1 714 5 to PW, Wedges  

:vokey-small: SM4 48*, Oil Can 52*, SM5 56* and SM6 58*, Putter   :titelist-small: Deadcenter SP-209, Ball   :titelist-small:  ProV1, :Arccos: Smart Sensors

Shoes:a couple :footjoy-small: A couple of:nike-small: A couple of Adidas ,   Yeah I have a shoe addiction.

Right Handed, Southeast Michigan

Honk If you see these plates around. 

20200728_121856.jpg.9cf8a7d26ca1096e8d390a8c2f59b6c2.jpg

I'm always driving around Michigan. 

The Ohio and Pennsylvania's turnpike as well as around Baltimore, Maryland. 

Grip it and rip it my friends. 

 

Link to post

Easily 300y drives.

I can avoid 3putting with my own skills, but I can't hit those monster drives.

:cobra-small: SpeedZone 9* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 60 S
:callaway-small: X2 Hot 3 Deep 14.5* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 S
:taylormade-small: JetSpeed 5W 19* w/ Matrix Velox T 69 S OR :adams-small: Super LS 3H 19* w/ Kuro Kage Black 80 S
:mizuno-small: JPX919 Forged 4-PW w/ Modus3 105 S
:titelist-small: Vokey SM7 50/08F, 54/14F & 58/08M w/ Modus3 115 Wedge
:EVNROLL: ER1 34" w/ SuperStroke Fatso 2.0
MfleKCg.jpg Pro / 9dZCgaF.jpgH2NO Lite Cart Bag / :Clicgear: 3.0 / :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX7 Pro LRF

My reviews: MLA Putter // Titleist SM7 // PING i500 // PuttOUT

Link to post

I would prefer 300 yd drives. Puts me in eagle range much more than I am now. 

Golf is simple - people are complicated.

5w Taylormade SLDR S 19* - 220yd, Ping G2 5-U - 190-105, Maltby M+ 54* & MG 60* - 95-75, Evnroll ER8, Titleist 816 H1 4h 21*, Maltby 4 Hybrid Iron 24* - 210-200, Callaway XR16 8* - 235 carry

886809507_image1(5).jpeg.56bc697c3b02b1fb00feb8d4b66389bc~2.jpeg

Link to post
1 minute ago, Buffly said:

I would prefer 300 yd drives. Puts me in eagle range much more than I am now. 

But then just think about how gut wrenching those three putt pars are 😉 

Driver: Honma TW747 460 VIZARD 50 S-flex
3 wood: GigaGolf TRX 15*  Grafalloy Pursuit M2T S-flex
Hybrids: GigaGolf TRX 18* and 22* UST HDX 70 S-flex
Irons: GigaGolf TRX PowerSlot 5-PW UST HDX 80 S-flex
Wedges: GigaGolf TRX 6.0 50*, 55*, 60* Dynamic Gold S-flex
Putter: Ray Cook M1 (2020) 34”

“Golf is a good walk enhanced”

Link to post
17 minutes ago, Cory O said:

That is logically true, but in reality for the vast majority of golfers at almost all skill levels, the full shot is more consistent than the partial shot. There’s nothing wrong with playing to the shot you’re most comfortable/consistent with (but keep practicing those partial shots)

Those who have looked at tons and tons of shots recorded for golfers at all skill levels have found that golfers, in general, across all levels, will average closer to the hole from shorter distances.  That even includes those "uncomfortable" partial shots.  That's the reality of the data, in general.  Its not necessarily true for every golfer, but its true for most.

  • Like 4

:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

Link to post
20 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Those who have looked at tons and tons of shots recorded for golfers at all skill levels have found that golfers, in general, across all levels, will average closer to the hole from shorter distances.  That even includes those "uncomfortable" partial shots.  That's the reality of the data, in general.  Its not necessarily true for every golfer, but its true for most.

Can you point me to any of that data? Not challenging you, just genuinely interested. The best I could find was a MGS article from a couple years back that said 60-80 is better than 100-120 from Arccos data, but I didn't love how they segmented the data (an 80 yard shot is still a full-ish sand wedge for most). Just based on personal observation, I feel like the partial swing gets more inconsistent the more "partial" it gets up until you're into the pitching range, 40-60 yards being the worst for me personally. I also feel like there could be a significant difference based on the lie, for example from the rough I am probably tighter or at least the same from 60 yards or 100 yards, but from a tight fairway lie, the 100 yard shot will almost always win out.

If there was something that broke down average distance left after approaches in 10 yard chunks (40-50, 50-60, 60-70, etc.), or any data about different lies, I'd really like to see it.

Edited by Cory O

Driver: Honma TW747 460 VIZARD 50 S-flex
3 wood: GigaGolf TRX 15*  Grafalloy Pursuit M2T S-flex
Hybrids: GigaGolf TRX 18* and 22* UST HDX 70 S-flex
Irons: GigaGolf TRX PowerSlot 5-PW UST HDX 80 S-flex
Wedges: GigaGolf TRX 6.0 50*, 55*, 60* Dynamic Gold S-flex
Putter: Ray Cook M1 (2020) 34”

“Golf is a good walk enhanced”

Link to post

I hit the ball a long way, and I don’t three-putt often, but I don’t see these as an equal trade off... If one is going from 250 average to 300, and using an 8 iron instead of a three iron, I see the benefit, but for me, I’d have to get three to four one-putts as the trade off to make it worthwhile. I don’t get birdies just because I hit it a long way... 

  • Like 4

Driver: :honma: TR20 460, :Fuji: Ventus Black 70X

Fwy: :titelist-small: TS3, 15*, Veylix Rome 888 X

Hybrid: :callaway-small: X2 Hot Pro, 20*, :Fuji: Rombax 8D07HB TM27 X

Irons: :honma:TR20 Tour P 4/5, Tour V 6-10, Dynamic Gold X100

Wedges: Vega VW-06 50*/54*/58*, Dynamic Gold S400

Putter: :seemore-small: Platinum M5 HT Mallet, 36"

Link to post
45 minutes ago, Cory O said:

Can you point me to any of that data? Not challenging you, just genuinely interested. The best I could find was a MGS article from a couple years back that said 60-80 is better than 100-120 from Arccos data, but I didn't love how they segmented the data (an 80 yard shot is still a full-ish sand wedge for most). Just based on personal observation, I feel like the partial swing gets more inconsistent the more "partial" it gets up until you're into the pitching range, 40-60 yards being the worst for me personally. I also feel like there could be a significant difference based on the lie, for example from the rough I am probably tighter or at least the same from 60 yards or 100 yards, but from a tight fairway lie, the 100 yard shot will almost always win out.

If there was something that broke down average distance left after approaches in 10 yard chunks (40-50, 50-60, 60-70, etc.), or any data about different lies, I'd really like to see it.

The whole concept is discussed in Every Shot Counts by Mark Broadie.  He utilized both the PGS Tour Shotlink data as well as similar types of data for amateurs from sources like Game Golf and Arcos.  I don't have the book here at work, so I don't have the details of his sources at my fingertips., but its an interesting read, explaining the Strokes Gained concepts in great detail

  • Like 3

:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

Link to post
1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

  And if you really cannot hit a 50-yard partial shot closer than a 90-yard full shot, you really need to practice partial shots.

image.gif

While I agree that people should practice the shorter shots more than they currently do, I disagree that it is always easier to be closer. Even watching the tour, they don't always just hit it as close as possible. They lay up to "their number". differences in people's swings and comfort levels as well as pin locations and green firmness will determine the best place to lay up from. There are for sure times I would much rather have a full swing in so that I don't have to think about back swing length, or so I can get extra height on the ball, or so I can generate more spin. 

  • Like 3
Driver: :taylormade-small: M5 9.5* head set to 8* loft 3*open, weights set slightly lower Launch and fade bias
3 wood: :taylormade-small: M1 13.5* Head set open w/ Fade bias weights. 
Irons: :ping-small: I-Blades PW-3i, 2* up standard length.
Wedges: :ping-small:Glide 1.0 TS 60*, :ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 ES, :titelist-small:Vokey 52* 
Putter: :ping-small: Sigma G Kushin .
Ball: Various: :titelist-small: AVX, :bridgestone-small: B X, and currently testing the Vice Pro + Neon just for fun
Link to post
28 minutes ago, PMookie said:

I hit the ball a long way, and I don’t three-putt often, but I don’t see these as an equal trade off... If one is going from 250 average to 300, and using an 8 iron instead of a three iron, I see the benefit, but for me, I’d have to get three to four one-putts as the trade off to make it worthwhile. I don’t get birdies just because I hit it a long way... 

It would be a much harder decision for me if the choice was 300 yard drives or 4 more 1 putts per round.   I don't 3 putt often but I sure wish i'd sink a few more in the 10 - 15' range!

  • Like 1

Ping G410+ 9*, Accra TourZ X265 M5 

Ping i20 17* & 23* hybrids, stock stiff shafts

Mizuno JPX 919 HMP 4i, PX LZ 6.0

Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 5 - PW, PX LZ 6.0

Cleveland Tour Action 49*, 53*, 57*; PX LZ 6.5

Ping Heppler Fetch

Link to post
5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The whole concept is discussed in Every Shot Counts by Mark Broadie.  He utilized both the PGS Tour Shotlink data as well as similar types of data for amateurs from sources like Game Golf and Arcos.  I don't have the book here at work, so I don't have the details of his sources at my fingertips., but its an interesting read, explaining the Strokes Gained concepts in great detail

Thanks for the direction. Looking up what I can pull from the book, I found table 5.2 for PGA tour pros and attached it to the post. For the pros, they are seeing .1 strokes gained from being 60 yards out as opposed to 100 yards out from the fairway (.11 from the rough). I can't find anything for the "average golfer" (say 12-18 handicap), but would be interested to see if that sort of gain still exists. My own anecdotal observation would be that it doesn't, but again that's just me. This chart also suggests that applied to game, I would save more strokes never 3 putting (~2 strokes a round) than being around 40 yards closer on drives with my normal accuracy (~1.4 strokes a round).

Table 5.2.jpg

Driver: Honma TW747 460 VIZARD 50 S-flex
3 wood: GigaGolf TRX 15*  Grafalloy Pursuit M2T S-flex
Hybrids: GigaGolf TRX 18* and 22* UST HDX 70 S-flex
Irons: GigaGolf TRX PowerSlot 5-PW UST HDX 80 S-flex
Wedges: GigaGolf TRX 6.0 50*, 55*, 60* Dynamic Gold S-flex
Putter: Ray Cook M1 (2020) 34”

“Golf is a good walk enhanced”

Link to post
2 minutes ago, The 19th Hole said:

While I agree that people should practice the shorter shots more than they currently do, I disagree that it is always easier to be closer. Even watching the tour, they don't always just hit it as close as possible. They lay up to "their number". differences in people's swings and comfort levels as well as pin locations and green firmness will determine the best place to lay up from. There are for sure times I would much rather have a full swing in so that I don't have to think about back swing length, or so I can get extra height on the ball, or so I can generate more spin. 

Please note that I never said its "always" easier to be closer.  Obstacles like bunkers, pin locations, speed and firmness of greens, terrain in the potential landing areas, all need to be taken into account.  

And some of the pros still play by the old advice, play to your favorite number.  The announcers certainly believe it.  Some of the more stat-conscious pros are following the newer methodology, and succeeding.  

  • Like 5

:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

Link to post
Can you point me to any of that data? Not challenging you, just genuinely interested. The best I could find was a MGS article from a couple years back that said 60-80 is better than 100-120 from Arccos data, but I didn't love how they segmented the data (an 80 yard shot is still a full-ish sand wedge for most). Just based on personal observation, I feel like the partial swing gets more inconsistent the more "partial" it gets up until you're into the pitching range, 40-60 yards being the worst for me personally. I also feel like there could be a significant difference based on the lie, for example from the rough I am probably tighter or at least the same from 60 yards or 100 yards, but from a tight fairway lie, the 100 yard shot will almost always win out.
If there was something that broke down average distance left after approaches in 10 yard chunks (40-50, 50-60, 60-70, etc.), or any data about different lies, I'd really like to see it.

You were pointed to Mark Brodie’s book, by looking at information published by Scott Fawcett and Lou Stagner should help as well.
  • Like 1

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* with UST Proforce V2
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :srixon-small: 765 6-AW with KBS Tour shafts
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :odyssey-small: Ten S      Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to post
16 minutes ago, Cory O said:

Thanks for the direction. Looking up what I can pull from the book, I found table 5.2 for PGA tour pros and attached it to the post. For the pros, they are seeing .1 strokes gained from being 60 yards out as opposed to 100 yards out from the fairway (.11 from the rough). I can't find anything for the "average golfer" (say 12-18 handicap), but would be interested to see if that sort of gain still exists. My own anecdotal observation would be that it doesn't, but again that's just me. This chart also suggests that applied to game, I would save more strokes never 3 putting (~2 strokes a round) than being around 40 yards closer on drives with my normal accuracy (~1.4 strokes a round).

 

Try to find Figures A-6, A-7, and A-8, for median leave (percentage of original distance, and in feet) and greens hit, based on distance from hole and organized by average golfer score.

  • Like 1

:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

Link to post
I realize the closer I am on approach, the better I will score in the long run. But I also realize the further I drive the ball, the more lost balls/recovery shots I will have in the long run - the longer you drive the wider your dispersion too. On my home course at least, I already don't hit driver on 9 of the 13 par 4/5's in an effort to take traps/other hazards out of play, and my scoring on those holes has definitely improved as a result. I don't always use driver when I'm at another course either. It's all a trade off, I continue to assess the best tradeoffs for my present game. As you know a lot goes into it aside from length off the tee.
And there's no club in my bag that would give me 80-100% fairways hit (and still give me any reasonable second shot).

Thanks for the response. I had started using the other approach and playing driver on holes where I didn’t and am scoring better even when I have penalties or have to hit recovery shots. Playing shorter clubs doesn’t eliminate those bad shots but the driver puts me in better positions. Of course understanding course and you dispersion pattern is important for club selection to make sure you can fit driver or any other club into the available space and determining where to aim.
  • Like 3

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* with UST Proforce V2
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :srixon-small: 765 6-AW with KBS Tour shafts
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :odyssey-small: Ten S      Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to post
I realize the closer I am on approach, the better I will score in the long run. But I also realize the further I drive the ball, the more lost balls/recovery shots I will have in the long run - the longer you drive the wider your dispersion too. On my home course at least, I already don't hit driver on 9 of the 13 par 4/5's in an effort to take traps/other hazards out of play, and my scoring on those holes has definitely improved as a result. I don't always use driver when I'm at another course either. It's all a trade off, I continue to assess the best tradeoffs for my present game. As you know a lot goes into it aside from length off the tee.
And there's no club in my bag that would give me 80-100% fairways hit (and still give me any reasonable second shot).

Thanks for the response. I had started using the other approach and playing driver on holes where I didn’t and am scoring better even when I have penalties or have to hit recovery shots. Playing shorter clubs doesn’t eliminate those bad shots but the driver puts me in better positions. Of course understanding course and you dispersion pattern is important for club selection to make sure you can fit driver or any other club into the available space and determining where to aim.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* with UST Proforce V2
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :srixon-small: 765 6-AW with KBS Tour shafts
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :odyssey-small: Ten S      Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to post
26 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Please note that I never said its "always" easier to be closer.  Obstacles like bunkers, pin locations, speed and firmness of greens, terrain in the potential landing areas, all need to be taken into account.  

And some of the pros still play by the old advice, play to your favorite number.  The announcers certainly believe it.  Some of the more stat-conscious pros are following the newer methodology, and succeeding.  

I don't watch every round on every telecast but it seems to me the playing to their favorite number only happens when they have to lay up on a par 5, or have a shorter par 4 where the decision is try to drive the green or hit iron off the tee and they have to decide which iron to hit.  As you said taking into account the green firmness and pin location and how much spin they need to create to hold that shot.

If it is a 'normal' par 4 they seem to hit it as far as they can with their driver and only hit less if a dogleg is at a bad distance for their big stick.  The lesser club off the tee on these par 4's in most instances isn't to play to a favorite number for an approach but to avoid a big number because of hazards off the tee.

Edited by Shapotomous
  • Like 2

Ping G410+ 9*, Accra TourZ X265 M5 

Ping i20 17* & 23* hybrids, stock stiff shafts

Mizuno JPX 919 HMP 4i, PX LZ 6.0

Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 5 - PW, PX LZ 6.0

Cleveland Tour Action 49*, 53*, 57*; PX LZ 6.5

Ping Heppler Fetch

Link to post

I'd take the 300 yard drives.  My P-average is 254 right now.  At my age, there isn't much I can do to get that to 300.  So I'd take the 300 yard drives and then spend a lot more time working on my distance control with the putter.  There are no age or physical issues with improving putting, or wedge play for that matter.  

On the two courses I play most, 300 yard drives would put a wedge in my hands on all the par 4s and make all but one of the par 5s reachable in 2.   I'd still have the par 3s to contend with, however.  

  • Like 1
Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...