Swing plane questions

[sparnar]

Hi spies

First off, I am not the most knowledgeable on swing theory, so if I mention something that doesn't make sense, or that is wrong, point me in the right direction. I haven't ever really read much about swing plane, so I am hoping the spies can help me out.

 

Having said that, I would certainly like to understand my swing better. And I would love to be able to self-diagnose when things aren't going according to plan.

 

During my last round this past Saturday, I was struggling with my swing up until the 13th hole. At this point, I had even considered aborting the round. And it takes alot for me to consider giving up on a round.

 

I stuck it out, and remembered something I did in a practice round earlier in the year, that really worked well for me.

 

Now, I am usually a bit of a digger, and I quite often struggle with my timing when at the range.

 

My usual mistake is breaking the wrists early, which leads to the club being taken way inside on the way back.

 

On Saturday I started swinging with more of a dead hands type of swing. I felt like my takeaway was more of a one piece, and I wouldn't really break my wrists too much going back. It is almost like I try to delay the breaking of the wrists as much as possible.

 

When I do this type of swing, the consistency is quite remarkable. And when swinging like this, I don't dig anymore. I pick the ball quite cleanly from the FW with this type of swing.

 

It also feels like I rely much, much less on timing the swing.

 

Another thing I have noticed is that I don't seem to get quite same height on my shots.

 

From what I have seen in the mirror, this looks to be a one plane swing to my very uneducated eyes (my left arm is on the same angle as my shoulders).

 

Would picking the ball cleanly, seeming more consistency, less reliance on timing, be consistent with a one plane swing? Or is the consistency just because I have found the swing that fits me?

 

This swing isn't ingrained yet, but it feels like I can call on this swing at anytime and have much better results, than my "other" swing where timing is much more important.

[Blade]

The simpler, the better. The more you can take timing a hand save out, the better. When I'm swinging my best, I'm focused on feeling what the club does to swing it and react to it. I feel it set at the top which is important to me. It puts everything together and I swing with the right tempo as opposed to yanking the club back and forth. The way I think about it is, I wouldn't think about how to move if I had a whip in my hand and wanted to snap it. Feeling what the whip is doing and where it is would take care of the timing and how to move automatically by reacting to it. The more I can do that, the more I put any mechanical thoughts out of my mind. How that might translate for you I don't know. But it sure helps me when I know something's wrong and I can't put my finger on it.

[Matt Saternus]

Sparmar,

Am I correct in remembering that you do work with an instructor? If so, my best suggestion is to discuss this with him. Consistency of approach and guidance is really important. If you work with your pro 90% of the time but listen to us 10%, we could be steering you in an opposite direction and making things worse. I hate to give that kind of non-advice, but I hate it when my students come in with "Michael Breed just said on tv..." so I would hate to do that to someone else.

If I am wrong and you're not taking lessons, let me know and I'll take a swing at your questions.

Also, fwiw, I think the one plane two plane business is a great way to sell books but not something worth getting caught up in.

Best,

Matt

[JMiller]

first off I think you have terms really confused with each other so Let me sort of get some information out there.

 

I would certainly like to understand my swing better. And I would love to be able to self-diagnose when things aren't going according to plan.

 

Now, I am usually a bit of a digger, and I quite often struggle with my timing when at the range.

The terms "digger", "sweeper", "average", "varible" are in reference to the Angle of Attack of the persons swing NOT their swing plane. I can be a one-plane swinger and be a digger at the same time. To do that All I would have to do is move the ball too far back in my stance forcing me to come into the ball very steeply and create the "digger" profile.

 

Here is an article that explains swing-plane and three very successful models over time. http://www.bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/2012/01/guide-to-understanding-your-golf-swing.html

Left drawing = One plane

Middle drawing = Hybrid plane

Right Drawing = Two-plane

 

Knowing which method you are in the backswing then and only then can you match it to a proper down swing sequence. A two-plane, Hybrid, One-plane once "in the slot" pretty much have the same release / strike to the ball, it's the process to START the down swing that is different.

 

 

My usual mistake is breaking the wrists early, which leads to the club being taken way inside on the way back.

 

On Saturday I started swinging with more of a dead hands type of swing. I felt like my takeaway was more of a one piece, and I wouldn't really break my wrists too much going back. It is almost like I try to delay the breaking of the wrists as much as possible.

An early wrist set is not always the cause of taking the club to the inside on the way back. If you are trying to take the club back more one-piece takeaway I have a drill for you. Place a ball in normal hitting position then place a ball directly behind the iron. The goal is to roll the ball behind the head straight backwards starting the takeaway low and smooth.

 

When I do this type of swing, the consistency is quite remarkable. And when swinging like this, I don't dig anymore. I pick the ball quite cleanly from the FW with this type of swing. It also feels like I rely much, much less on timing the swing. Another thing I have noticed is that I don't seem to get quite same height on my shots.

It is possible that you are getting less spin from the shot having a sweeper type motion through impact rather then a steep aggressive angle of attack into impact. This could account for the less height in your shots simply having less spin on the ball it is less likely to balloon.

 

From what I have seen in the mirror, this looks to be a one plane swing to my very uneducated eyes (my left arm is on the same angle as my shoulders).

Here are a couple of Videos of Johnathan Byrd a one-plane swinger, you notice he really fires the hips on the way down, I love using him as an example as his one-plane is just pretty to see.

Driver ~ www.youtube.com/watch?v=uelklRZ9deU

Iron ~ www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DKtKa4xjDo

 

From the top position it's all about rotating the hips, really watch the hips in the above videos how much they rotate all the way through the swing. The only danger of the swing is some people will get "stuck" hands behind the body from over rotation back or hip spinning through which will result in one of two things:

1) a flip that has to be timed and will likely be a snap hook on a miss

2) a massive blocked shot.

 

The one-plane is a very simple swing and honestly I tend to recommend it to any AM that doesn't have a lot of play / practice time. It's esily repeatible and has more room for error majority of the time in sequencing (it's all rotational sequencing so simple). The website http://www.rotaryswing.com/index.php has two models of swing RS / RS1.0 (one-plane) and RST (Hybrid plane). You might be able to get some drills and simple one-plane instruction picking the RS1 model from that site.

 

 

This swing isn't ingrained yet, but it feels like I can call on this swing at anytime and have much better results, than my "other" swing where timing is much more important.

I'm not sure what your "other" swing even is honestly it is likely that you are sequencing the Hybrid or Two-plane swing incorrectly and not dropping the club into the slot creating a timing issue and steep angle of attack.

 

Downswing Sequence:

Hybrid Plane ~ requires some lateral slide towards the target THEN hip rotation in the down swing.

If you watch Tiger from 2000 face on you see a weight sift / slide left THEN hip rotation in his swing

Two plane ~ requires almost all lateral slide towards the target with little hip rotation.

If you watch Jack from his dy all you will see is lateral slide with little hip rotation on a Face on view

 

 

Would picking the ball cleanly, seeming more consistency, less reliance on timing, be consistent with a one plane swing?

 

Or is the consistency just because I have found the swing that fits me?

Yes, a one-plane swing is very repeatable as I have said, it will tend to shallow out the angle of attack for most golfers providing more room for error. one-plane is a pure rotational swing nothing more so it doesn't take as much an effort to time the down swing unless you have the ball positioned poorly or other issues in the swing sequence. As I said before people can get "stuck" if they over rotate the backswing on the one-plane and get the hands deep behind them.

 

You probably found the backswing sequence that matches more closely your natural down swing sequence. How many times have you heard "start with the hips" which translates into a rotational thing right? Well rotation in the hips to start the down swing only works in a one-plane swing it will not work in a Hybrid plane or two-plane swing like i said above.

 

Hope that helps in some way understand the swing a little more, it is always a good idea to have an instructor even if you know the swing inside and out it's better for a 2nd pair of eyes to see it then just you. I know the swings pretty dang well and still go to an instructor.

[JMiller]

Sparmar,

Am I correct in remembering that you do work with an instructor? If so, my best suggestion is to discuss this with him. Consistency of approach and guidance is really important. If you work with your pro 90% of the time but listen to us 10%, we could be steering you in an opposite direction and making things worse. I hate to give that kind of non-advice, but I hate it when my students come in with "Michael Breed just said on tv..." so I would hate to do that to someone else.

If I am wrong and you're not taking lessons, let me know and I'll take a swing at your questions.

 

Well said Matt, here is the exact reason I went into details of all three methods, and made the disclaimer to go to an instructor.

[bargolf]

If swing plane is not important or worth considering then what is? I would hazard to guess that the op found the appropriate arm slot during the round and that was the reason for the improved ball striking. He says the arm is on the same plane as the shoulders. What would happen if he swung the club on a more upright arm plane but used the same down swing sequence of motion as always. Hips would spin out, the club would be on a vertical plane and the only way to save it would be to chop.

[Blade]

I'm not gonna waste space highlighting em, however as usual, excellent post by both JM & Matt!

 

Hat's Off!!

 

Though Matt, and maybe I read it wrong, are you saying that swing plane is irrelevant or inconsequential to one's mastering their golf swing?

 

I probably didn't process your comment correctly :-p

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

I don't know. I don't know different swings like you guys nor have I played for decades. But as someone who has come a long way in a short time, compared to guys I play with anyway, I tend to agree with Matt. Mixing different methods will cause a problem no doubt. But I think people tend to get too caught up in technical, mechanical stuff instead of learning their natural way to swing to make the ball do what they want. If their mind is stuck on hitting the ball, they need that stuff more to get into decent positions. But if a person can get their intent off of hitting the ball, and onto feeling the club swing, the brain is working with different instructions and tells the body how to make it happen. Is that a cure-all for everyone? I'm sure it isn't. Will that concept even help everyone? Probably not. But it makes a HUGE difference for me! The less I think about HOW and focus on the correct intent, the better results I get. It may be just me though. Maybe most people do better following a "method". It just seems to me it would be very hard to go from trying to copy positions to making it "your" swing. I could be totally wrong too. Wouldn't be the first time!

 

Anyway, that's kinda how I took Matt's comment. Don't get too hung up on the technical stuff and let things happen. I could be wrong though.

[Matt Saternus]

Richard,

All I meant was that I think the labels are overrated. People get caught up "this is what a one planer should do" or "I'm a two planer" instead of things like "how does this change affect club path and contact".

Best,

Matt

[JMiller]

I translated the posts by Matt the same way and I might be off basis myself but it sure sounded like this:

"backswing sequence doesn't matter and has no relevance on downswing sequence, path and contact is all that matters".

 

This is really far from the truth as it can get. For me the terms / labels are to identify a proper sequence of motion for the downswing to match the backswing to get proper path, consistent contact, etc. I'm not in the business of instruction but it doesn't seem like you could improve a players game without having their proper swing sequence first.

 

If swing plane is not important or worth considering then what is?

 

I would hazard to guess that the op found the appropriate arm slot during the round and that was the reason for the improved ball striking. He says the arm is on the same plane as the shoulders.

 

What would happen if he swung the club on a more upright arm plane but used the same down swing sequence of motion as always. Hips would spin out, the club would be on a vertical plane and the only way to save it would be to chop.

 

I think this says it well in shorter words then me as to what the OP was experiencing.

[Tyk]

Great posts guys! Especially like Jmillers, alot of good thought put into that!

 

Sparnar, without getting into the technical aspects, I myself have benefited from keeping my wrists from breaking too early. For a time, I was actually starting the club moving with the wrists. I think I got onto this by using some drills improperly and it worked for a while but ended up being too much of a good thing, I was doing what I think you said you were doing and getting too inside early. But, this was more because I was rotating the wrists back and inside as I was breaking them, so my left wrist was cupping very early! I got rid of that with some practice and now I start the club moving with the shoulders and want little or no break and no cupping back to 9:00. This then gives me the feeling like I am picking the club straight up from 9:00, even though I am not, I am much more in jmiller's position 1 even when I feel like this, but that is because before I was so laid off at the top as a result of my improper wrist movement early.

 

One of my favorite drills for how I want my wrist to work is what I call the "watch drill". Basically, just lift your left arm like you're wearing a watch and checking the time. There's no break or cupping of your wrist when you do this. Do it with a club in your hand. Then do a few baseball swings with the club being conscious of how your wrists work and how you would be able to check your watch easily through the first move, with the baseball swing, its pretty easy to see how any wrist cupping destroys the swing, and also how your wrists rotate to impact through to follow through. Then get into addressing a ball and feel that same "watch drill" in the golf swing. For me this really helps establish a good start and helps at the bottom of the swing through to follow through.

[JMiller]

Later addition(02/27/13, 11:58am): JM, who introduced the hybrid swing into the discussion?

 

Well, honestly the short answer is I don't know. When Jim Hardy came up with the term "one-plane" it's not like he invented the method. The method was around WAY before the term was ever being used. For a long time all you saw was stuff about one-plane versus two-plane and never really heard the term "hybrid plane". That's probably because most people considered it one or the other nothing in the middle. I'm not sure at what point in history of golf instruction the term "hybrid plane" was introduced and by whom but I can tell you who made it more popular (Tiger Woods 2000). The lists can be very long in the one-pane and two-plane categories.

 

EXAMPLES OF PLAYERS & SWING PLANE

one-plane

Ben Hogan, Arnold Palmer, Johnathan Byrd, Zach Johnson, Matt Kuchar, Tiger Woods (currently closest to this model), etc.

 

hybrid

Greg Norman, Tiger Woods (2000, when he dominated everyone), etc.

 

two-plane

Jack Nicklaus, Fred Couples, David Toms, Dustin Johnson, Johnny Miller, Tom Watson, Tiger Woods (AM & 1996 first on tour), etc.

 

As weird as their backswing motions are, Rickie Fowler ends up more one-plane at the top of the backswing and Jim Furyk ends up two-plane. You can go through any players swing on tour and fit them into one of the three positions at the top. Once they have the positions at the top it's all about matching a sequence on the way down to make consistent good contact and have control of it. Some swings are a bit more efficient then others and require less practice to maintain.

 

I would probably call Adam Scott a Hybrid swing but some people might toss him in the two-plane swing mix, there is a lot of two-plane motions in there but the arm at the top is not as high of an angle as a normal two-plane swing would be.

 

 

 

Sorry for the rambling on about it, really it just comes down to make a backswing that you are conferable with and can do the motions consistently, then match the down swing sequence to that. If you are a person that can't really adjust the downswing motions that easily (like most of us) match the backswing sequence to your down swing sequence.

 

If you rotate the hips a ton in the down swing with little lateral slide you need to look into a one-plane backswing.

If you like to have a little slide THEN rotation in the down swing (slide could be from a pronounced weight shift) then you might look at a Hybrid backswing position.

If you are a person that really likes to slide the hips straight at the target without a lot of hip rotation you need to look into the two-plane swing.

 

 

I know that Rotary Swing Tour (RST) model is based on sports science and efficiency with attempting to reduce the risk of injury. This happens to be a Hybrid swing model, and really based off Tiger Woods in 2000 because he did so much correctly in that swing. I personally wrote a RST swing review a lot of what they said made a lot of since HOWEVER, it is still trying to fit people into one swing method and I am personally against that. I like it when people stay with what feels natural to them and tweak it from there.

 

 

Where are we going in the future, more depends on technology and the popular player of the day as to what method is the "best".

[bargolf]

The hybrid phrase is one used by an instructor to describe those who worked with Butch Harmon. Arm on top of the shoulder, square clubface to the left arm at the top. Slide and turn (one move) in the down swing.

[revkev]

I am enjoying reading this thread even though I have nothing too contructive to add to it - I'm going to let JMiller do the talking and rest my case.

 

I will say with all due respect to Matt that it is important for a player to know generally speaking where he falls if he is the type who will listen to advice from others or from articles. If the player is going for a lesson it becomes the teacher's issue to work with the player not to identify his swing type to him and then choose from column A or B. I think that's what Matt's getting at if I read him rightly - I'd be concerned that too many folks mix and match in advice that's not good for their swing - they read this tip in a publication and think it will work but it hurts rather than helps.

 

JMiller hit the nail on the head in regards to the hips - there is one strata of sequence that facilitates a swing if you slide your hips and another strata of sequence that facilitates the swing if you rotate - start mixing in the wrong stuff and you become a mess in a hurry.

 

Over the past six months I've found that the same holds true for chips and pitches - at least in my case - its why matching equipment to swing is important through the bag IMO - I'm great with a high lofted SCOR wedge in my bag - I need something with a moderate amount of traditional bounce as my middle wedge though because I use that bounce for all of those shots around the green and the SCOR was giving me fits - I just couldn't/can't get it to work for me and those shots are way, way too important to what I do in my game. Rotate and use the bounce is the way that I get the ball up and down - others do it differently and that's great for them.

[sparnar]

Hi guys

Thanks for all the replies so far. And my apologies for only getting back to this thread now. Things are a bit hectic at work.

 

Thanks to jmiller for the great breakdown, and thanks to Matt for his advice.

 

First off, I had a few holes of very good ballstriking on the day in question, where I hit 3/3 FIRs, and 4/5 GIRs over the last 5 holes. I usually don't hit 4 GIR's in a whole round.

 

So I hope you guys understand, that I want to know why my ballstriking was so much better on the day. I want to reproduce those results next time.

 

Now, for me to be able to reproduce this, I need to understand better what was happening.

 

For now, I've got a feeling that I used at the time. And it has worked once or twice before as well, but when that feeling might be gone, I need to have some more info that I can try to recreate this.

 

Matt, I really appreciate your comment, and I had about 10 lessons with my pro last year. When I have lessons with him, we use my 7i to work on changes. After a warm up, and some of his comments, I hit some of the prettiest 7i shots of my life. But my problem comes when I try to recreate these the next day, or the next week.

 

With him there, he points me in the right direction if I'm doing anything wrong, and there isn't any need to self diagnose.

 

Now as I mentioned in my first post, I am not very knowledgeable about swing plane, but the feeling he was trying to ingrain in my swing, was to have my hands feel higher at the top of the backswing. And to me, that seems to suggest more of a two plane swing.

 

I do tend to struggle with my timing, so I am not sure if that model would suit me best.

 

And before I can discuss something like this with my pro, I would like to have some more info. Otherwise, I might be the guy saying "I read\heard about this one plane swing...", and my pro might just shrug it off, without discussing the merits, or not, of the swing in my instance.

 

So for now, I want to try and figure out the 'why' and the 'how'. That way, next time when I go to my coach, I can have a more informed discussion with him. And if he is not comfortable with what I require from him, I can look around for a pro that would be able to help me out with my swing.

 

At this point, I have no way to know if my pro is comfortable with teaching different swings, or if he is a one-size fits all type of pro. What he did with me, seemed to work when we were together. But I had a hard time to make it work by myself. This might very well be my fault, and have nothing at all to do with my pro.

 

But this forms part of my journey of learning more about golf, and learning more about not only the golf swing, but more specifically my own golf swing.

 

As I said in the first post, I am not overly technical. But if I know where my swing falls with regards to plane, I can work on the fundamentals, and hopefully improve in the long run.

 

I want that ballstriking each and every time I step on the course!

[JMiller]

I think I said this before in this thread, the most likely case is that you found a backswing sequence that matches your current downswing sequence.

 

My best educated guess would be that you are using conflicting sequence of motion between the backswing and the downswing. Likely lift (hybrid / two-plane) back swing and hip rotation (one-plane) in the down swing.

 

If this is the case the hip rotation to start the downswing from a hybrid / two-plane backswing would get your hands / arms "stuck" / "trapped" behind your body. From the stuck position you can do two things block it badly or flip the head over creating a timing issue. When you are early it will be a snap hook, late a push or push fade.

 

You can't have conflicting sequence of motions between the backswing and downswing, by going to more of a one-plane backswing (shoulder rotation without a lot of lift) you then match your current down swing (rotational with the hips and not slide towards the target) properly creating better ball striking situation with out the flip involved.

 

You just have to match a FEEL in your body to what an instructor is tell you to do and duplicate that FEEL without thinking about anything else. What you FEEL like you do and what you ACTUALLY do are drastically two different things.

[Tyk]

What you FEEL like you do and what you ACTUALLY do are drastically two different things.

 

 

Boy aint that the truth! Which makes me wonder Sparnar, does your instructor use video in his teaching process? If not, you should insist on it. Not every time, but it's great to have it as a reference. IMO it is very valuable to be able to SEE what you are doing in the swing for precisely the reason jmiller just stated. I can't tell you how many times I've thought I was doing what I thought my instructor was saying, only to go look at the tape and figure out not only was I NOT doing what I thought I was, but that I wasn't even understanding correctly what my instructor was telling me in the first place!! That's a pretty difficult thing to resolve without video!

 

For me, seeing it on video really helps me, what I especially like is to have the video available right in the hitting bay, instead of looking at the video later. So I can make a swing and we can look at it immediately. Very very useful imo, because I can make a swing, feel it, then make an adjustment and feel that, then go beyond to feel what is too much, etc. Looking at your bad swings is just as important as seeing your good swings and would probably help you be able to self diagnose and adjust on the course because you would have a better visual image of what you are doing wrong in a given situation.

 

I would also point out that taking alot of lessons and not playing alot is for me not a good mix. I like to take a lesson and try to get one or two things that I am going to focus on and work on those things for a while until I start getting that ingrained, or maybe even discard it as unhelpful. Trusting yourself enough to know what DOESN'T work for you is just as important as figuring out what does. For me, I had to finally tell one instructor to just get over the fact that my backswing is to long. I know it's to long but trying to fix it in the way he wanted me to was really trashing my game at the time. I told him he had to just accept it and figure out another way to help. Funny thing was, when he stopped focusing on the back swing and started focusing on some other things, the result of focusing on those other things actually shortened my back swing a bit! You sometimes gotta take charge of your own swing and challenge your instructor to not try to fit you into a mold of what he wants you to be and focus on making what you ARE better. There's a fine line between that being good and that being bad. Its a funny game Sparnar, keep us posted!

[JMiller]

I personally do online instruction with Bruce Rearick (bargolf / Burnt Edges Consulting) I live in North Carolina he is over in Indiana. All we do is talk via e-mail and i take film once and awhile to pass along to him via YouTube links. Even my crappy cell phone taking video is good enough for him to see what's going on in my swing. There would not be an effective way to do online courses for instruction without video and images to back up the text / conversations that we have.

 

I find that using video, I only take shots about once every 3 months, I'm sure you could do it once a month as well but it would be pointless to do it so frequently that you don't have time to change it then re-review the video later. I find video used in moderation a great tool, if you over kill it and look at nothing but video there isn't really a point in that.

[sparnar]

I actually bought a Groupon voucher late last year, as I wanted to make sure my shafts weren't hurting my game.

 

We went through a few swings with the Mizuno swing analyzer, and the rest of the fitting resulted in a informal lesson with the pro (this was a different pro to the one I've been visiting).

 

He pointed out a few things, and he actually took some video of a couple of my swings. That was the first time I realized how much inside I was taking the club. It looked ridiculous on the screen!