Rumor: Dicks and GG lay off Golf Pro's?

[revkev]

I do not have any "hard data", just anecdotal evidence. I have worked in the same golf shop for the past 10+ years, and been in the golf business since 1995. Without a doubt, the median age of my customers has gone up. Dramatically. I just do not see the younger crowd coming in for equipment like I used to even 5 years ago, and certainly not like 15 years ago.

But how much of it was the Tiger effect? Didn't he make golf cool at a time when there was disposable income out there? At the same time baby boomers were into the spend spend and over spend mode that included wanting that 5,000 square foot trophy house on the 15th fairway of an Arthur Hills orTom Fazio course.

 

Both of those groups went belly up on the sport for different reasons. The club sports thing is an epidemic that will die when all those young adults see that their kids aren't getting college scholarships - that's what they all think BTW because I have them in droves in my congregation. Of course the boomers had to down size and in some cases come out of retirement to go back to work.

 

In the meantime the industry kept pushing more, more, more. We have lots of people playing here but clearly not enough. Courses are going under and private is becoming public.

[wbealsd]

I agree the industry overall is in decline, for a host of reasons mentioned above. I'm lucky I live in an area where golf is still affordable and most communities have at least a 9 hole community course. Granted, the courses aren't open year 'round, but we have golfers of all age groups and some youngsters filling the sign up sheets for First Tee & Boys & Girls Club golf programs.

 

This past year we've also had a new golf affiliate in the area that's offering annual memberships for a group of local courses + fitness centers at prices ranging from $50-$150 a month. They've also added golf simulators in some of the clubhouses and affiliated with a local business that's a combination sports bar / indoor golf center with 5 sims. This group is expanding the number of courses on an ongoing basis and is a big reason some courses are busier than they've been the past couple of years.

 

Some courses are struggling, but overall, most courses are still pretty busy and 3 courses have major remodeling projects completed or in progress.

[BIG STU]

FWIW, I love to play, but I've considered giving up the game a few times myself, especially in the last 6 months.  Costs to play here are going up ( dramatically ), the courses are become borderline player hostile with pricing and policies. There is an uptick on old fartery going on that frustrates me to the point that sometimes I just don't want to to deal with them.

 

 

Examples:

 

Last year the average round price in the area was $35.  This year I struggle to play rounds for less than 60 any place that isn't my home course.  Even there, my monthly that was 264 last year is now just a few dollars short of 500.  A beer that was borderline wallet rape at 4.50 is now 6.00.  Food?  even worse.  4 sodas.  39 for NXT's.  24.99 for Pinnacle Golds.  

 

And the old fartery?  65 year old's with 14 handicaps shooting 68's when there is money or tournament golf, while posting 85's most of the year? Crotchety lazy old farts that quite happily walk all of gods green earth, but *have* to have flags so they can play 90* when it's cart path only. These same old farts wearing out younger players for not meeting their 'dress codes'.  I'm not talking ragged cut offs, but $80 Adidas Golf shorts that happen to have cargo pockets ( tasteful ones ). These same old farts appear to have forgotten decency (saying stuff to the young girls working the courses that goes beyond inappropriate). They've forgotten how to tip for decent service.  Exemplary service?  I've seen these guys tip $.50 yes, that half a collar, two quarters to guys that have unloaded bags from cars, put them on carts, pulled the carts out front, refilled drinks, cleaned clubs, and delivered them back to the car, all with a smile.

 

And then you have the attempts to bring in younger players by these old farts, who will bend every rule they can, while being complete arses to the new players about every stitch of the rules.

 

My personal favorite is 'play it down' but playing 'lift clean and cheat....  err, place'.

 

Yeah, we can whip the industry, it deserves a lot of whipping, but the culture among a lot of the older players bears every bit as much blame as the industry that feeds them.

LMAO that describes about 85% of the old fart retirees around here to a tee! I may be getting to be a crudgemon as I get older but down here I see more and more of the younger generation hanging out in sports bars and watching sports on the tube instead of getting out and actually doing something physical. Of course as I have said before on here the decline of golf depends on what part of the country you live in. I have noticed in my area we have had more summer tourism golfers than ever before this year

[The Artful Duffer]

Pretty good read from Forbes that tries to explain the millennials bolting from the game in droves. Actually does make some valid points

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mattpowell/2014/07/24/sneakernomics-how-golf-lost-the-millennials/

[Jondagcl]

Sorry guys...not buying the totality of the age and being at in in-between point in life argument. That has always been a factor, but golf has never seen a demographic void like there is right now.

 

Indicators actually point to people waiting longer to start families and having fewer children when they do.  Especially in the socio-economic demographic that your "typical" golfer tends to come from.

 

As a person at the tail end of this magical demographic, I have a number of late 20's to mid 30's friends who have no kids, substantial discretionary income and no desire to play golf.  And I mean none, like your company will send you on trips for free to awesome places and pay for everything if you just signup to make a 4-some for the company charity so and so event.  I think that asking people that love golf (like us, and all the other message boards) is not going to answer the why don't more people play.  I think you'd need to ask people that don't play why they don't play and you'll get a myriad of reasons.  

 

It's an enlightening conversation to have though and I do appreciate seeing so many diverse points and opinions brought up.

[revkev]

Indicators actually point to people waiting longer to start families and having fewer children when they do.  Especially in the socio-economic demographic that your "typical" golfer tends to come from.

 

As a person at the tail end of this magical demographic, I have a number of late 20's to mid 30's friends who have no kids, substantial discretionary income and no desire to play golf.  And I mean none, like your company will send you on trips for free to awesome places and pay for everything if you just signup to make a 4-some for the company charity so and so event.  I think that asking people that love golf (like us, and all the other message boards) is not going to answer the why don't more people play.  I think you'd need to ask people that don't play why they don't play and you'll get a myriad of reasons.  

 

It's an enlightening conversation to have though and I do appreciate seeing so many diverse points and opinions brought up.

Spot on

[Blade]

Indicators actually point to people waiting longer to start families and having fewer children when they do.  Especially in the socio-economic demographic that your "typical" golfer tends to come from.

 

As a person at the tail end of this magical demographic, I have a number of late 20's to mid 30's friends who have no kids, substantial discretionary income and no desire to play golf.  And I mean none, like your company will send you on trips for free to awesome places and pay for everything if you just signup to make a 4-some for the company charity so and so event.  I think that asking people that love golf (like us, and all the other message boards) is not going to answer the why don't more people play.  I think you'd need to ask people that don't play why they don't play and you'll get a myriad of reasons.  

 

It's an enlightening conversation to have though and I do appreciate seeing so many diverse points and opinions brought up.

Good post.  I started playing 4 years ago and I'm 43. My bro-in-law had played since the early 90s and always tried to get me to play.  I had zero interest.  

 

One reason was the intimation factor.  I had no idea how to play and thought you needed to play well before getting on a course. I didn't want to send a ball every direction but where I wanted while people who knew what they're doing stand waiting.  I also perceived it to be an exclusive, snobby sport for old guys. 

 

I also thought it was very expensive.  It can be of course, but doesn't have to be.  I thought you had to spend $1000 or more to get clubs, not to mention green fees. I heard of $100 green fees and didn't have disposable income after first getting married to even think about spending like that.  Didn't bother to find out what you could get for less because there was no interest in it for me anyway.  

 

Part of being turned off to it was TV golf. The little bits I had seen looked mind-numbing.  Some guy whispering into the mic the whole time.  I still didn't watch it through the Tiger era. But when I saw clips I remember saying that he's changing the game and making it cool. The broadcasts seemed more exciting at least.  

 

It wasn't until a buddy dragged me to an executive course that took the intimidation away that I decided to keep playing.  Perfect weather, walking around in the grass and trees and no stuffy old men looking down their nose at me for bad shots. I played that course over 50 times before ever getting on a full course.  

 

So I would say my biggest reason for not playing was perception.  I had the wrong perception, but it was reality in my mind.  

 

A developer I work with scoffs at golf when I bring it up.  He has that same perception.  Stuffy old fat guys riding around in a cart smoking a cigar. He's more into motocross and heli-skiing in Alaska.  Don't blame him for that one. But he won't even think about trying golf and it certainly has nothing to do with cost or time. Just the perception. 

 

To get people to try it, that perception it tends to project needs to change. The country/golf club exclusive culture kills it's chances for that.  Look at the image Augusta projects.  "You can't be part of this." And the golf industry is scratching its head over why people don't take the game up... Please. 

[Jondagcl]

So I would say my biggest reason for not playing was perception. I had the wrong perception, but it was reality in my mind.

 

A developer I work with scoffs at golf when I bring it up. He has that same perception. Stuffy old fat guys riding around in a cart smoking a cigar.

 

To get people to try it, that perception it tends to project needs to change. The country/golf club exclusive culture kills it's chances for that. Look at the image Augusta projects. "You can't be part of this." And the golf industry is scratching its head over why people don't take the game up... Please.

 

It's a sport that has spent a considerable amount of its history keeping people out. Exclusions based on gender, race or socio-economic factors, all sort of resulting in a very interesting landscape that you have now. You mentioned Augusta in your previous post and it wasn't too long ago that it's membership "traditions" were being heatedly discussed.

 

Your closing line about them scratching their heads over why people don't play nails it, I too find that comical. More efforts have to be made, aside from society gradually changing over time, to make this game more inclusive.

[revkev]

Guys I hope you keep this discussion up. The fact is that you won't attract younger golfers if you don't listen to what they have to say and address the concerns in a meaningful way.

 

Because of my vocation I spend enough time around younger people to know that inclusivity is a big deal for this generation. If they smell exclusive, they run.

 

In some ways I have the same issues as a churchman. Plus I have an entire generation that wants me to talk about a return to the "good" old days. Truth be told I don't think they were that good. Like all days they had their moments and we tend to selectively remember those. Over the course of the past 50 years golf has had it's moments. Arnie and Tiger come to mind in terms of public popularity.

 

Golf is changing, it's a game that's been around for a long time and it's bigger than my generation or the next. It will evolve in some way that allows it to continue. I'm very confident about that.

[revkev]

I know that I'm doubling up but my custom is to stop by the golf course on the way to church and chip and putt for an hour or so.  I did and here's what I saw.  When I got there a young man (under 30) was chipping.  Because we had the threat of thunderstorms on the range there were only 8 people hitting balls.  Three of them were young women, two young men and the other 50 somethings. 

 

There were two dad/grandchildren combos on the putting green one boy, one girl, both preteens.  Of the five groups that I watched come through four had at least one woman in them and they were younger women.

 

I don't dispute the numbers at all but wanted to point out that this is what my course has going for it.  It has four sets of tees that all make sense - It's not a case where they stuck tees out there after the fact but they actually changed the course when they realized they needed different sets and looks if they wanted to attract women players.  They have been featured in women's golf magazines.  The course is not overly difficult but it's challenging enough, particularly from the proper set of tees and in good enough shape that you can tell its cared for.  They have reasonably priced food/drink and a cart and beverage girl that makes the rounds regularly. The staff is generally friendly, particularly the pro and department managers. 

 

They reach out heavily to local schools to try and have our teams practice and play there.  They also offer a good practice facility and a par 3 course that has similar greens/tees to the big course making the transition for easy.  It's under $40 even in season.  They also offer a back nine early nine hole start for those who are interested.

 

The one thing that they don't have going for them is pace of play although I don't believe I've ever had a 5 hour round - I still think they could send out a ranger to move things along in 4 or under.

 

Bottom line is they make a round of golf as accesible and as fun as possible for all involved and they are packed because of it.  The course is like that old pair of slippers that you slide right into.

 

I don't think it's an accident that they stay busy.

[SPY ZINGER]

Just walked into my local dicks and the golf retail floor section was literally cut in half. It's unreal and filled with backpacks now.

[Jondagcl]

Plus I have an entire generation that wants me to talk about a return to the "good" old days. Truth be told I don't think they were that good. Like all days they had their moments and we tend to selectively remember those.

Can't add much to that other than to say, yup. I also enjoyed your second post about how well your local course is doing!

[RookieBlue7]

Something else to factor into less and less kids... Specialization among youth athletes is more and more prevalent.  Used too, kids played every sport as the seasons changed.  Now, they have year round everything, and travel ball. A kid plays 1 sport and doesn't touch anything else.  I'm actually glad the sporting complex that's being built locally (as recruiting hubs for baseball, soccer and lacrosse, as well as having a cable wake park and a ton of beach volleyball courts) is adding a Greg Norman Academy with an executive course.  It'll give a little exposure to all the people going to that complex.

[BIG STU]

You will start to see more and more closing of the doors for golf jobs, golf equipment and apparel companies, golf forums, etc.

 

Only 14 new golf courses were built last year while 157 were closed.

 

We NEED a healthier supply and demand. It'll be good for everybody. The tiger boom is over.

 

We don't need 27000 PGA Professionals. We don't need 1000 golf forums. It's been happening for the last couple years and will continue for probably the next eight more so sit back, grab some popcorn, and hopefully we can all keep our heads above water.

Yep it looks like it is starting to be tough times in the golf industry for the PGA of America. This downturn will surely hurt them badly because you will have quite a few class A members drop out and quit paying dues. I know we have 2 PGM schools here and they do teach the business side of things. I have noticed over the years at my home course that these younger guys tend to graduate from their respective schools maybe pass their PAT and then leave the industry for greener pastures in the business side of things. I have also noticed a trend of courses not nessecarily hiring PGA of America "certified" pros. I will give the PGA credit for trying to promote the game through their commercials on the GC but I think they and the USGA should run more commercials on more mainstream channels. Think about it most people that watch the GC or ESPN etc already play golf

[revkev]

Good points from Rookie and Stu. I realized one other thing about my league course, dress code or rather lack there of. Whatever is descent in a public place is okay there, ie. T-shirt, sneakers, jeans in the winter, what ever.

[BIG STU]

Something else to factor into less and less kids... Specialization among youth athletes is more and more prevalent.  Used too, kids played every sport as the seasons changed.  Now, they have year round everything, and travel ball. A kid plays 1 sport and doesn't touch anything else.  I'm actually glad the sporting complex that's being built locally (as recruiting hubs for baseball, soccer and lacrosse, as well as having a cable wake park and a ton of beach volleyball courts) is adding a Greg Norman Academy with an executive course.  It'll give a little exposure to all the people going to that complex.

I just found out this week that the kids now have golf teams independant of the schools now for summer. From what I gather it is like the traveling baseball teams. seems to be a great concept. I found out from my wife one of her vendors at work is coaching one of the teams. She of course gave him one of my cards and told him if we could be of help with clubs or repairs let us know. This I think is really great to maybe getting kids into the game and for the future of the game.

[revkev]

I just found out this week that the kids now have golf teams independant of the schools now for summer. From what I gather it is like the traveling baseball teams. seems to be a great concept. I found out from my wife one of her vendors at work is coaching one of the teams. She of course gave him one of my cards and told him if we could be of help with clubs or repairs let us know. This I think is really great to maybe getting kids into the game and for the future of the game.

 

 

It is and it isn't.  Having done the baseball traveling team thing I'm not quite sure how good it is for the game - it's like evolution, only the strong survive.  I suppose that would be great were it football where folks get together and while away their Saturday/Sunday afternoon, Monday night, drinking beer and watching the game.  No doubt my son was good enought to play baseball at a smaller college but he was burned out on the game by the time he got to his senior year of High School and prefered football at that point.  Frankly he was probably better at football and could have played at this college had he wanted.  Having suffered one concusion he was done which proves he's smarter than I am and anyway he's the one in the Navy now and has caught the golf bug which is great.

 

From personal experience I think it's seriously reduced participation in baseball and am pretty sure that it will for golf.  If you are good at golf you'll do it but if not, you won't, and you will have little to no contact with the sport.  As we know golf doesn't have a huge following outside of those who play it.

 

With baseball when I was a kid everyone played in the summer, now it's just the elite by the time they are 12 - the elite soccer players are playing soccer, basketball - basketball, hockey-hockey and so on and so forth.  IMO this will last about a decade and as parents start to realize they were fooled into thinking it would garner a scholarship for their kid it will die out.

 

Golf needs a shot gun approach where lots of people get to try the game, not a select few.  That's my opinion.

[mnfats95]

I've seen first hand what can happen to a child when they are involved in an activity for the sake of "their future".

 

It's very sad when a kid who does have a talent for something has their love of it ruined by someone forcing them to treat it like a job.

 

Everyone wants their children to succeed, but sometimes the best recipe for this is to stand back and let them decide that they love it enough to pursue it.

 

You will have less resistance and probably a more successful time at it if you make sure it's their choice and not yours.

 

If they decide that they would rather not do it then there is no sense in forcing them to. Chances are even if they continue the path you are forcing them down they will just up and quit whenever they finally decide that they can make their own decisions.

 

If they decide to pursue it on their own then by all means, be supportive and help them make wise decisions, but in my opinion it's over if you have to force the issue repeatedly.

[revkev]

I normally play today but my back is really barking so I went to the chiropractor instead.

 

After my adjustment I went to Dick's for the first time in a while. Felt like I was dirty just walking in. Seemingly nothing has changed though.

 

Went to golfsmith also and noted the large marked stock of stage 2 stuff. Very little in the used club bins, way less than normal but that could be because they are getting ready for the season where they get lots of trade ins.