2023 Ryder Cup - Official Thread

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Shapotomous said:

Are there any stats from the ryder cup on fairways hit (better yet would be dispersion) and GIR for comparison between the two teams?  

 

I've never seen those stats broken out.  You could look at the shotlink data and do the calculation yourself    Probably not done because not everyone tees off or hits approach shots,  holes aren't finished, not all holes are played.  

1 hour ago, Shapotomous said:

I think strokes gained stats should be recalculated to account for courses with shin deep rough versus the normal pga tour setup.  Maybe look at us open stats as a comparison to how this course was set up?

I dont know what the difference might be but i think it is a more valid comparison.

Strokes gained is just an average number based across all courses.  When you look at the strokes gained numbers for the Ryder Cup it is the numbers for the players playing the same course so it is comparative.  The harder course would have lower strokes gained numbers.  For example on a "normal" course a strokes gained number is 3.55 and on a "US Open" type course the same shot would be 3.75.  Every player would use that same number so it would change the actual numbers,  but probably not significantly impact the difference between players. 

[billpierce]

I heard on the radio interview that they actually designed the course to play against the US. So they picked average drives in club tendencies and etc. and then design the course to play against the US scoring tendencies.

[cnosil]

6 hours ago, Stuka44 said:

The answer is, the reliance on stats, and numbers.   The Mark Brodie "strokes gained" fallacy, especially for "MATCH PLAY".   100% correct especially when as you stated the course was specifically set up and the rough allowed to grow, to almost guarantee, not being able to get on the green from the rough at 180 (an 8 iron).  Why would you want to hit a hybrid to 200, and hit 6 iron from fairway, and have a putting contest.   If I had been Zach Johnson, I would have been snapping drivers, on the first tee for all the U.S. Players! 

How does your strategy GURANTEE that the results would be different and US scores would be lower?  Your hitting hybrid vs. your opponent hitting driver means you are giving up say 50 yards? What makes you think you are hitting more fairways?  Your going to hit the same number of greens and be just as close to the hole to have that putting contest?    

Edited October 3, 2023 by cnosil

[Shapotomous]

52 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I've never seen those stats broken out.  You could look at the shotlink data and do the calculation yourself    Probably not done because not everyone tees off or hits approach shots,  holes aren't finished, not all holes are played.  

Strokes gained is just an average number based across all courses.  When you look at the strokes gained numbers for the Ryder Cup it is the numbers for the players playing the same course so it is comparative.  The harder course would have lower strokes gained numbers.  For example on a "normal" course a strokes gained number is 3.55 and on a "US Open" type course the same shot would be 3.75.  Every player would use that same number so it would change the actual numbers,  but probably not significantly impact the difference between players. 

I didn't explain what I was looking for very well.  Mostly because I was posting on my phone rather than my laptop and I tend to use less words. To better explain what I meant....

It seems to me using the stats obtained from play across all courses is not a good set of numbers to look at for strategy at certain course set ups.  If I was playing a course set up like Marco Simone, I would look at stats from the US Open for the last 5 years.  Obviously from the scoring averages the US Open courses are set up much tougher than regular tour stops (except for Erin Hills).  If previous Euro hosted Ryder Cup courses were set up similarly then I would include that data as well.  If the data supports hitting driver every chance you get whether you are in shin deep rough or not then have at it.  If it supports hitting 3w or 5w to increase fairways hit %'s then go that route.  

I haven't heard of the teams using this type of analysis.  Maybe I missed it.

[Preeway]

I don’t know how much weight tour pros put into stats over just trusting their game when it comes to deciding on how to play a shot/hole/course. My guess is they don’t pay a lot of attention to stats and instead go with what feels best/right in the moment. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Preeway

[Josh Parker]

I think most of them know the risk/reward for each hole and course they play.  I'm sure that a few look at past rounds at these course.  Fitzpatrick keeps every single Stat but he said he has done that for years. 

[cnosil]

9 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

I didn't explain what I was looking for very well.  Mostly because I was posting on my phone rather than my laptop and I tend to use less words. To better explain what I meant....

It seems to me using the stats obtained from play across all courses is not a good set of numbers to look at for strategy at certain course set ups.  If I was playing a course set up like Marco Simone, I would look at stats from the US Open for the last 5 years.  Obviously from the scoring averages the US Open courses are set up much tougher than regular tour stops (except for Erin Hills).  If previous Euro hosted Ryder Cup courses were set up similarly then I would include that data as well.  If the data supports hitting driver every chance you get whether you are in shin deep rough or not then have at it.  If it supports hitting 3w or 5w to increase fairways hit %'s then go that route.  

I haven't heard of the teams using this type of analysis.  Maybe I missed it.

I got what you meant.  The data doesn’t change; closer to the hole is always better and laying back does not guarantee fairways.  

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Preeway said:

I don’t know how much weight your pros put into stats over just trusting their game when it comes to deciding on how to play a shot/hole/course. My guess is they don’t pay a lot of attention to stats and instead go with what feels best/right in the moment. 

I think they put a lot of weight into stats,  too many of them are quoting and following DECADE principles.  At that level every player can hit every shot so the trust is there.  There is some basis for feel, but most players follow a predetermined plan for each hole.  Post round tracking can show that they follow the same plan and that plan provides the greatest opportunity to post the lowest score.  
 

Let’s look at Spieths 3wood tee shot into the water on 16.  That was a change based on feel and information that was provided about players going left and not getting up and down from the left side.  He tried to lay back to hit the fairway and ended up in the water.  

[Preeway]

Not implying they put zero thought into stats but I would guess they are thinking more about their own stats/tendencies when planning out their hole by hole strategy rather than stats for the Tour as a whole. I know things like strokes gained are always looked at as well but after watching how USA played this weekend it appeared they were basing their approach based more on their own game versus what the stats might say is the "better" shot. Then again, I could be completely wrong. 

[cnosil]

6 minutes ago, Preeway said:

Not implying they put zero thought into stats but I would guess they are thinking more about their own stats/tendencies when planning out their hole by hole strategy rather than stats for the Tour as a whole. I know things like strokes gained are always looked at as well but after watching how USA played this weekend it appeared they were basing their approach based more on their own game versus what the stats might say is the "better" shot. Then again, I could be completely wrong. 

 When looking at these strategies most people question the hit it as far as possible mentality believing that you will hit more fairways and greens if you lay back.  Your personal shot dispersion does come into play when hitting approach shots. Recovery and approach shots are calculated real time so t isn’t discussed on threads like this very often.    Don’t know how much you know about DECADE, but it is a driver first unless penalties come into play making the safe area less than 70yards, then pick target target based on how far you are out from the hole.  Recovery is another think but generally get the ball back into a safe place and don’t take the hero shot.   This doesn’t guarantee no bogies or worse but maximizes your chances to get the best score.  Golf balls are not hit with rifle accuracy; they are more of a shotgun pattern so  You cannot look at one or two shots, you have to look at long term probabilities 

[Preeway]

I’m familiar with DECADE but not in depth. I know tour pros tend to play driver first unless hazards come into play.  For the most part they are better with a 9i/wedge from the rough than a 7 iron from the fairway. And the stats show that hitting fairways with a driver is almost the same percentage as using a 3-wood. Unless you are Spieth at the Ryder Cup. Then you are trash with a 3-wood,  

[Jim Shaw]

2 hours ago, Preeway said:

I don’t know how much weight tour pros put into stats over just trusting their game when it comes to deciding on how to play a shot/hole/course. My guess is they don’t pay a lot of attention to stats and instead go with what feels best/right in the moment. 

I am with you on that question @Preeway, I would think it would be a personal choice, some players are hard wired and want to know every little stat, and having said that one of their "team" could be dedicated to delivering the stats to them, and of course some "know" what their stats are, they know at the end of the round where their area of opportunity is, that is why most of them go to the range and work on their game after the round not before. That is just my thought, could be totally wrong. 

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

I am with you on that question @Preeway, I would think it would be a personal choice, some players are hard wired and want to know every little stat, and having said that one of their "team" could be dedicated to delivering the stats to them, and of course some "know" what their stats are, they know at the end of the round where their area of opportunity is, that is why most of them go to the range and work on their game after the round not before. That is just my thought, could be totally wrong. 

I think we are discussing two types of “stats”.  You are talking about individual performance stats that are about what to work on for improvement.    The stats of the original post are about how to play the course from a strategy perspective…what club to take off the tee and target on approach shots.  

[sixcat]

14 hours ago, revkev said:

Did anyone catch the story about Xander’s dad? I would reiterate that I don’t think it’s fair that people are making 100’s of millions of dollars for this event and the players get nothing. I’m all in on covering the expenses (which means reasonable salaries for organizers) and give the rest to mutually agreed upon charities. Then we’d have an event that was truly for the love of the game.

Any bets on that happening? 

Don't Ryder Cup participants currently get $200k donated in their name to the charity of their choice, all involved travel, room and board, clothing, and a team chef, ? What more do they want? Perform in the Ryder Cup and the ancillary benefits will be quite rewarding. You don't see Max Homa whining because he isn't being paid for every golf ball he hits. Xander and Cantlay (and Stephon) need to go away, in my opinion.

What Xander is asking for is a bridge too far for me. He demanded a portion of the Netflix proceeds and refused to sign a waiver to appear on camera during filming. Which nearly led to him being removed from the team before he acquiesced.

Several articles have been written suggesting Jamie Weir's reporting on Cantlay was dead-on with the exception of Presidents Cup players being paid. But since Weir got that one aspect wrong, Cantlay (and Team USA) tried to make everyone believe the whole thing was inaccurate. Kevin Van Valkenburg's piece on No Laying Up is the best of those pieces, in my opinion. https://nolayingup.com/blog/sunday-scenes-from-the-2023-ryder-cup

Outside of Max Homa, the US Team is largely unlikable for me and have been for quite some time. Just my opinion. 

Money, it's gonna ruin sports! ~OB Keeler~

[Jim Shaw]

14 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I think we are discussing two types of “stats”.  You are talking about individual performance stats that are about what to work on for improvement.    The stats of the original post are about how to play the course from a strategy perspective…what club to take off the tee and target on approach shots.  

Ahh, you are right, when I read back. @Preeway sorry about that. 

What we do at our level is work on determining "lines" off tees and possible "quadrants" so fire at with possible pin placements. We also are aware of hazards on each hole, uphill or downhill etc. which we can get from "Google Earth and most courses have a yardage book with valuable information" Unfortunately we don't get the "stats" the elite golfers have access to.

If I had information like they do I would definitely add it to my arsenal preparing for the competition, and when I arrived on site I would take the information I had written down and add comments to the yardage book I had prepared. 

 

I am going to expand a bit on how I like to prepare and all this is important to me in regards to a strategy perspective. 

I live on the west coast of Canada, and the premier competition for me is the Canadian Senior Men's amateur. This completion is competed all over Canada, which like the US is a very large country so I don't have the ability to get on site and play and "feel" 90% of the courses where they hold the competition. 

I do my due diligence from afar like I said, use google earth, get a yardage book with information and talk to people that have played the course, lean on them for information. As the completion get's closer I plan on getting on the property early like 3 days prior, not only to see the course but to see the clubhouse, see where to check in, see the Pro Shop and introduce myself, find out where to store our clubs, where to park my car, I just like to get a sense of the place. 

Sorry guys I am rambling a bit on this post which really isn't on topic. 

In summary @Preeway I think all the "work" would be done by the player and their team prior to arriving on site and stats would definitely play a part, then when they arrive on site they would use those stats and feels to get prepared the best they could, if the property is played on every year, year 2 would be much easier to prepare for. 

[StrokerAce]

13 hours ago, billpierce said:

I heard on the radio interview that they actually designed the course to play against the US. So they picked average drives in club tendencies and etc. and then design the course to play against the US scoring tendencies.

THIS... so much this. 
 to the EUROs for designing the course to make it seem easy/easier to the US team and their aggressive nature when in fact they were playing right into their hands.

This seems to be overlooked and was a big component in the final outcome.

I'll bet you Jordan Spieth will never play that course again as long as he lives.

[cnosil]

36 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

What we do at our level is work on determining "lines" off tees and possible "quadrants" so fire at with possible pin placements. We also are aware of hazards on each hole, uphill or downhill etc. which we can get from "Google Earth and most courses have a yardage book with valuable information" Unfortunately we don't get the "stats" the elite golfers have access to.

Why do you think this isn’t done at the recreational/golf league level?  While I don’t play at the level of amateur completion that you do, I use google maps on new course that I am playing,  I establish driver lines, I work on my mental focus, etc.   my goal is still to shoot the lowest score I can.  I understand that most weekend golfers don’t do this, but better and more committed golfers do.   

[Jim Shaw]

16 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Why do you think this isn’t done at the recreational/golf league level?  While I don’t play at the level of amateur completion that you do, I use google maps on new course that I am playing,  I establish driver lines, I work on my mental focus, etc.   my goal is still to shoot the lowest score I can.  I understand that most weekend golfers don’t do this, but better and more committed golfers do.   

hmm, maybe time, it does take time to do it, that is nice for me to see you do this as well. 

[cnosil]

18 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

hmm, maybe time, it does take time to do it, that is nice for me to see you do this as well. 

Yep, this is why I talk about stats a lot.  Now if I could just fix the technique issues.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by cnosil

[cnosil]

The Euros also took a statistical approach for course management.  

https://www.si.com/golf/news/stats-guru-edoardo-molinari-european-ryder-cup-team

 

[GolfSpy AFG]

1 hour ago, StrokerAce said:

THIS... so much this. 
 to the EUROs for designing the course to make it seem easy/easier to the US team and their aggressive nature when in fact they were playing right into their hands.

This seems to be overlooked and was a big component in the final outcome.

I'll bet you Jordan Spieth will never play that course again as long as he lives.

I know he was dreadful Friday and Saturday, but he actually shot a 63 on Sunday.  

[Preeway]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

Why do you think this isn’t done at the recreational/golf league level?  While I don’t play at the level of amateur completion that you do, I use google maps on new course that I am playing,  I establish driver lines, I work on my mental focus, etc.   my goal is still to shoot the lowest score I can.  I understand that most weekend golfers don’t do this, but better and more committed golfers do.   

I use my 18 Birdies app to do much of that when playing a course for the first time. Lets me plan out which holes I will use less than driver on and come up with a game plan for how to attack short or medium length holes. Just my competitive nature I guess. 

[chisag]

42 minutes ago, Preeway said:

I use my 18 Birdies app to do much of that when playing a course for the first time. Lets me plan out which holes I will use less than driver on and come up with a game plan for how to attack short or medium length holes. Just my competitive nature I guess. 

 

... I am amazed at anyone that can use stats to play better and I tip my cap to you guys. I of course have a tendency for every hole played at my home course, but every day is different and what club I chose on any given tee is always fluid. If I am not hitting my driver well, there are a few holes I can use a DI or hybrid. If I am swinging well there are few holes I normally use a DI or hybrid but will hit driver. One in particular, the 8th has about a 225 carry over water and if swinging the driver well I will go for the green, but if I have anything less than 100% confidence I will lay up with an iron and have a wedge in. 

... Same thing for par 5's and on good swinging days I will go for all 4 of them in 2, but with trouble on the 10th and 15th I may opt to play a 4 iron leaving a short iron approach. If the pin is tucked in front with bunkers on both sides I may go right at it but again if my swing is dead on that day, otherwise I am taking more club and playing for the middle of the green. Every round is different. Stats just aren't gonna help me if they indicate a missed green and bogie on a bad swinging day and a GIR playing to the middle and a birdie on a good swinging day. 

... I guess you could make the argument that I have subconscious internal stats based on over 1,000 rounds on my home course that take into consideration how I am feeling and swinging on any given day because there are holes more penal than others and I will always play safe on those while taking chances on holes that are less penal if I miss my target. So it isn't like I am feeling good today so I am going at every flag but everything is feel based on previous performance and how I am swinging that day. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by chisag

[Preeway]

Until I play a course 5+ times, I rely on 18 Birdies to at least give me a chance to play smart golf. I’ve been able to score much better this year as a result. But then again, seeing the course in person is different than just looking at it on the app so the best laid plans are sometimes quickly tossed out the window,  

[revkev]

@Sixcat I don’t know what a reasonable threshold of pay would be for the Ryder Cup because I don’t know what revenues or profits are. I also disagree with OBs statement. There has been pay for play in sports since Gladiator days. I also respect your opinion and I find the Euro team more like able than the US one.  I still rooted for tte US but if you threw these 24 guys in a tournament field I’d be rooting for Shane Lowry. 
 

I can’t recall who said that Spieth shot 63 on Sunday - sorry not buying that one unless there were tons of give me’s involved. 
 

Every professional sport has gone the numbers route. How could golf not? This course is used for a DP world tour event, they know that the average from the right tough is .46 strokes higher than the left on hole x, that you go for the pin if it’s on the back right on 12 and middle of the green if front right, etc

 

Plus Europe did a detailed analysis of how to set the course up to its advantage. Again this is nothing new in sports just more precise. Where do you think the term Baltimore chop came from? 
 

I don’t fault them for doing that. I applaud them. If they want to change it up let the visiting team set the course up. Home team picks it, visiting team sets it up.

 

 

[chisag]

16 hours ago, revkev said:

I don’t know what a reasonable threshold of pay would be for the Ryder Cup because I don’t know what revenues or profits are. I also disagree with OBs statement. There has been pay for play in sports since Gladiator days.

 

... Rev I think "threshold of pay" at this point would be $4.8 Million going to charity. If any of these guys can't get behind that, I feel sorry for their souls. That $200k is also a tax deduction up to 50% of their adjusted gross income and I think it safe to say all of these guys make more than $400k with winnings an sponsors. So it isn't like these guys are "working" for free. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by chisag

[KC Golf]

5 hours ago, Preeway said:

Until I play a course 5+ times, I rely on 18 Birdies to at least give me a chance to play smart golf. I’ve been able to score much better this year as a result. But then again, seeing the course in person is different than just looking at it on the app so the best laid plans are sometimes quickly tossed out the window,  

I will have to look at 18 Birdies.  I use Arccos to get a feel for the course.  I think their caddie AI is still garbage, but it gives me a sense of distance to certain fairway bunkers and what it leaves me for second shots. I would say, I actually play pretty well if its my first round on a hard course if I play with a guy who's very good and familiar with the course. I think it helps when a person tells you what side of the fairway to aim for or what you should use as a good marker for what specific portion of the green to hit too and how far, etc.  what bunkers to avoid etc.  Speed of greens, etc.  All of which are not on most apps.  

I really enjoy playing courses I have never played before.  Going to hit 3 in the next 2 weeks.

[Preeway]

It’s a great free app. I have the upgrade version but I don’t think it’s worth it. Will go back to the free version next season. 

[KC Golf]

1 minute ago, Preeway said:

It’s a great free app. I have the upgrade version but I don’t think it’s worth it. Will go back to the free version next season. 

Wow.  It's Free?  I am going to search for this ASAP.  Thanks for the tip!

[Preeway]

Free version is really all you need. And the free version works with an Apple Watch too.