Non-standard Lofts

[fixyurdivot]

I'm thinking about having my ZX5's adjusted stronger.  Since moving from the G410/AWT's to these irons with the MMT80's, I'm seeing higher ball flight.  This was evident in the fitting data but not appreciably so; and not like I'm seeing on the course.  I think the trade-off between descent angle and distance would be a good one.  I'm currently seeing ball stopping power down to the 4i and, not being a long hitter, feel that being able to choose the next club up on those "tweener distances" will improve my dispersion and increase GIR %.

There is the chance my irons are not per spec - I have not had them checked since the Fairway Jockey build. But, I suspect they are and I'm seeing the difference between studio setting and course play.

How many of you have had your irons adjusted from "OEM standard" lofts to something else in all or part of your set and why?

[RickyBobby_PR]

My current sets aren’t and I’ve only done it once with miura cb57  because I wanted to keep the wedge gapping I had at the time.

At the end of the day the difference it made wasn’t a factor on the course and the numbers on the monitor didn’t drastically change with a 1° stronger loft.

The first thing I would do I have your specs checked and adjusted for any that fall out of spec from your fitting.

Then I would get on a launch monitor to see what your launch, spin, dynamic loft, peak height, land angle are to confirm that against what you see on the course.

The ball you use may have more of an influence than the loft of the club. Keep in mind that changing loft is going to affect bounce in a 1:1 ratio. Making loft stronger by 1° will reduce loft by 1°.  

[cnosil]

Here are my thoughts:  people seem to be obsessed with a clubs loft; I’m not one of them.  I prefer to focus on understanding the distance each club goes.   I’ve never adjusted the loft on any irons I have owned. Or really cared what they were.   After listening to the no putts given episode with Lou Stagner and the one on hitting the ball higher I have thought about possibly reworking my gapping to have more distance between the longer irons and reducing the gapping and maybe increasing the number of clubs at the short end of the bag.  Would that change me from stock lofts…maybe.  The purpose would be to get finer granularity in short iron distance control. 

[fixyurdivot]

9 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Making loft stronger by 1° will reduce loft by 1°.

I'm guessing you meant reduce bounce... but good to know...  since I have no idea what my ZX5 v-sole bounce numbers are .  Regarding balls, I've done a couple of fittings and, based on those, been predominantly using PV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, and TP5. Based on what I see during play - "throw a hat over them" when it comes to ball height and all aspects of performance.

 

22 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Here are my thoughts:  people seem to be obsessed with a clubs loft; I’m not one of them.  I prefer to focus on understanding the distance each club goes.   I’ve never adjusted the loft on any irons I have owned. Or really cared what they were.   After listening to the no putts given episode with Lou Stagner and the one on hitting the ball higher I have thought about possibly reworking my gapping to have more distance between the longer irons and reducing the gapping and maybe increasing the number of clubs at the short end of the bag.  Would that change me from stock lofts…maybe.  The purpose would be to get finer granularity in short iron distance control. 

Good points and I often hear the "who cares what the number is on the sole".  What I'm partly basing my decision on is that being able to hit the next club up (6i vs. 5i for instance) improves the odds of better ball striking and less dispersion.  For most, both of these improve as the number on the bottom of the club increases - or at least that's what I experience and often hear/see from others.  Also, since I don't struggle at all holding greens, gaining some distance seems like a good trade? 

[cnosil]

38 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Good points and I often hear the "who cares what the number is on the sole".  What I'm partly basing my decision on is that being able to hit the next club up (6i vs. 5i for instance) improves the odds of better ball striking and less dispersion.  For most, both of these improve as the number on the bottom of the club increases - or at least that's what I experience and often hear/see from others.  Also, since I don't struggle at all holding greens, gaining some distance seems like a good trade? 

They say that about the number on the bottom because it has more loft than the club with a lower number.   Typically the lower the loft the more dispersion you get.  Increased Loft typically means more backspin and less sidespin (very generalized as there are more factors involved)

[Golfspy_CG2]

You only gave one option to enter     What about those of us who have multiple sets, with some at factory loft and some adjusted..LOL 

But to answer, I did have my T200 strengthen by 1 degree from 30 to 29 degrees.  Yes, I'm egotistical and wanted a few more yards out of it, as I already hit it short enough.   Then on the opposit end I also purchased the JPX923 Hot Metal HL irons which  are 28.5 but marketed as High Launching due to the weighting and nto so much the loft.   So if both sets were built accurately they should be within .5 degree of each other.  But I bet if I got them both checked, I'd find they probably cross over each other a time or two up and down the line

From limited play with both right now, I find they are both pretty close to the same distance...iron to iron but I do in fact notice a higher flight from the Mizuno. 

[Jim Shaw]

interesting comments on loft adjustment, full disclosure every one of my miura irons are adjusted, I originally was fitted to srixons but at the last minute a friend of mine at the club got a job with Miura and he gave me a good price and I just adjusted my lofts to the srixon specs, anyway the point of my post is, prior to "I think it was Callaway" in the late 70's early 80's that actively started moving lofts around at the factory level, we would ask fellow players "what club did you hit there?" so on a par 3, lets say 150 yds, we all would hit different clubs, a lot of it was "feel", this shot "feels" like the right one, we weren't as dialled in and didnt have the tools to measure loft, lie, carry distance, ball speed etc etc... now that we do have the tools I think golfers should adjust their lofts to what makes them "feel" good, have confidence and make their game more fun to play...

 

[THEZIPR23]

I think 1* ~3 yards so will you really be hitting 1 club different? Best guess is probably not. Dynamic loft is vastly more important than static loft.

Full disclosure mine are 1* stronger. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

55 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I'm guessing you meant reduce bounce... but good to know...  since I have no idea what my ZX5 v-sole bounce numbers are .  Regarding balls, I've done a couple of fittings and, based on those, been predominantly using PV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, and TP5. Based on what I see during play - "throw a hat over them" when it comes to ball height and all aspects of performance.

Sorry yes meant bounce. Brain to keyboard not working. I’m not sure what the bounce is on the zx5. Some people are more sensitive to a change than others. 
 

Interesting that you see similar ball height with those balls. I’ve seen a significant difference between avx and Prov1. And prov1 vs tp5 I’ve had difference n distance with irons and woods and the tp5x played similar to prov1 for me.

I would be interested to see what your numbers are for irons on a monitor using one of your gamer balls or with a range ball and trackman set to optimize so that it mimics a prov1 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, THEZIPR23 said:

I think 1* ~3 yards so will you really be hitting 1 club different? Best guess is probably not. Dynamic loft is vastly more important than static loft.

Full disclosure mine are 1* stronger. 

3 yards isn’t one club, it’s just on the edge of 1/2 club. That’s assuming all things equal. That 1° isn’t going to change launch characteristics much either again assuming all things equal. Dynamic loft is what’s going to have an impact more than static loft

[funkyjudge]

26 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Sorry yes meant bounce. Brain to keyboard not working. I’m not sure what the bounce is on the zx5. Some people are more sensitive to a change than others. 
 

Interesting that you see similar ball height with those balls. I’ve seen a significant difference between avx and Prov1. And prov1 vs tp5 I’ve had difference n distance with irons and woods and the tp5x played similar to prov1 for me.

I would be interested to see what your numbers are for irons on a monitor using one of your gamer balls or with a range ball and trackman set to optimize so that it mimics a prov1 

 

I also get a significantly lower ball flight with the AVX and a somewhat higher ball flight with the TP5x balls.  I actually feel that the TP5x plays more similar to the ProV1x than to the ProV1, but that’s for me and YMMV.

[funkyjudge]

30 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

3 yards isn’t one club, it’s just on the edge of 1/2 club. That’s assuming all things equal. That 1° isn’t going to change launch characteristics much either again assuming all things equal. Dynamic loft is what’s going to have an impact more than static loft

Unless the golfer has an exceptionally slow clubhead speed, 3 yards should be about 1/4 of a club difference gap, certainly less than 1/3 of a club differential.

[funkyjudge]

BTW, I voted “yes”, because my 5 and 6 irons are bent weaker than standard to give me consistent yardage gaps (176-180 for the 5 iron, and 162-165 for the 6 iron, to about 149-150 yards for my 7 iron — all based on warm weather playing conditions). The reason for bending those two irons between 2* and 2.5* weaker is because I play Exotics E721 “players distance” 5 and 6 irons and Exotics C721 “competition spec” 7, 8 and 9 irons in a blended set. My lofts are set at 3.5* to 4* increments from the 5 through 7 irons and 5* increments from the 8 iron through my most lofted wedge (59*}.

[RickyBobby_PR]

24 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

I also get a significantly lower ball flight with the AVX and a somewhat higher ball flight with the TP5x balls.  I actually feel that the TP5x plays more similar to the ProV1x than to the ProV1, but that’s for me and YMMV.

For me it depends on the release. I havent compared the 2019 prov1 to any of the new tp5 balls. The 2017 v1 and 5x were similar for me and then 17 v1x and tp5 were similar. Also have only played 1 round with the 2021 version and don’t have e enough on course experience to compare to anything

I’ve stayed away from anything other than prov1 for the most part only because I haven’t had the desire to test anything on the course 

[RickyBobby_PR]

@fixyurdivotdo you happen to have the launch monitor data from your fitting?

[fixyurdivot]

7 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

What about those of us who have multiple sets, with some at factory loft and some adjusted..LOL

Rob, you don't even fit into the anomaly bucket . 

 

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

@fixyurdivotdo you happen to have the launch monitor data from your fitting?

Buried somewhere... I'll have a look. I do need to have mine checked and make sure they are factory standard lofts and 2 deg up.  We're having a big "demo day" event here this Friday, maybe one of the mfg.'s can check them for me.  If not, I'll find a shop.

[RickyBobby_PR]

55 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Rob, you don't even fit into the anomaly bucket . 

 

Buried somewhere... I'll have a look. I do need to have mine checked and make sure they are factory standard lofts and 2 deg up.  We're having a big "demo day" event here this Friday, maybe one of the mfg.'s can check them for me.  If not, I'll find a shop.

Unless they have a tour truck with loft/lie I doubt they will be able to, usually they just have their vehicle or a sprinter van just to transport clubs and nothing for club building 

[GolfSpy_APH]

14 hours ago, cnosil said:

Here are my thoughts:  people seem to be obsessed with a clubs loft; I’m not one of them.  I prefer to focus on understanding the distance each club goes.   I’ve never adjusted the loft on any irons I have owned. Or really cared what they were.   After listening to the no putts given episode with Lou Stagner and the one on hitting the ball higher I have thought about possibly reworking my gapping to have more distance between the longer irons and reducing the gapping and maybe increasing the number of clubs at the short end of the bag.  Would that change me from stock lofts…maybe.  The purpose would be to get finer granularity in short iron distance control. 

This. 

My 659 TC were sent to me with standard lofts and I actually don't even remember what exactly they are. What I ended up doing was a gapping session and tweaking the lofts a bit up and down to get the dispersion I wanted. I actually don't even recall what irons are at what lofts. I also added some lead tape to the 5 iron to help get the height I wanted. 

This worked great for me this year and saving some rainy day funds for my own loft and lie machine which I will then look to tweak them once again in the beginning of 2023 with another gapping session. 

Lofts are what they are, I prefer to know and have the distances/flight windows for the irons which I want/need. 

Also try going from playing your whole life with yards and thinking club X is your 150 yard club to meters and stakes are still 200,150,100 but in meters and then you really don't care what the lofts are. You just want to know and make sure you have the right distances for each club. The conversion isn't difficult, but it still is an added calculation for each shot. 

[cnosil]

7 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

 

This worked great for me this year and saving some rainy day funds for my own loft and lie machine which I will then look to tweak them once again in the beginning of 2023 with another gapping session. 

 

You just came up with a reason to know lofts.  When checking them you need to know what they should be since that is how a loft lie machine measures a club.  

[GolfSpy_APH]

Just now, cnosil said:

You just came up with a reason to know lofts.  When checking them you need to know what they should be since that is how a loft lie machine measures a club.  

Yes, for sure. I think i could have worded my response better 

Knowing and caring what they are at are in two different buckets. 

 

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Yes, for sure. I think i could have worded my response better 

Knowing and caring what they are at are in two different buckets. 

 

Just reminded me that I probably should know mine.   Means you don’t have to go through another gapping session bless your swing changes or you get another year older and lose swing speed.  

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Just reminded me that I probably should know mine.   Means you don’t have to go through another gapping session bless your swing changes or you get another year older and lose swing speed.  

I have them noted and written down somewhere... however where is a whole other question!

[fixyurdivot]

8 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This. 

My 659 TC were sent to me with standard lofts and I actually don't even remember what exactly they are. What I ended up doing was a gapping session and tweaking the lofts a bit up and down to get the dispersion I wanted. I actually don't even recall what irons are at what lofts. I also added some lead tape to the 5 iron to help get the height I wanted. 

This worked great for me this year and saving some rainy day funds for my own loft and lie machine which I will then look to tweak them once again in the beginning of 2023 with another gapping session. 

Lofts are what they are, I prefer to know and have the distances/flight windows for the irons which I want/need. 

Also try going from playing your whole life with yards and thinking club X is your 150 yard club to meters and stakes are still 200,150,100 but in meters and then you really don't care what the lofts are. You just want to know and make sure you have the right distances for each club. The conversion isn't difficult, but it still is an added calculation for each shot. 

In reading this and @cnosilresponses, I take it neither of you feel that being able to hit the next club up improves odds of a better strike and less dispersion (or that any gain is miniscule)? I know my confidence increases grabbing my 6i vs. 5i. As I mentioned in my OP, I feel like I could trade some ball height for distance. 

Maybe it's just these courses I'm now playing, but I seem to be having way more "tweener" decisions on which iron to hit.  I think this has resulted in me subconsciously not committing to the shot - that is to say backing off a little or knowing I need to hammer it.  Since switching to the ZX5's, I've been choosing to drop down a club on many shots.  This largely from my own range work establishing distances.  Knowing what pure struck lengths are vs. the more typical 80% strike leaves me in unsure-land more so on these courses.  Lots of false fronts, particularly tough with front flags, that do not allow just short shots to bounce or roll on; for sure on shots with high descent angle.  This is where I'm thinking an extra 3-4 yards and lower descent angle could help. 

Maybe I'll visit the PING booth and hit the G425's and i230's against my gamers, off the turf, and see what they think about the ball height.  

[GolfSpy_APH]

10 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

In reading this and @cnosilresponses, I take it neither of you feel that being able to hit the next club up improves odds of a better strike and less dispersion (or that any gain is miniscule)? I know my confidence increases grabbing my 6i vs. 5i. As I mentioned in my OP, I feel like I could trade some ball height for distance. 

Maybe it's just these courses I'm now playing, but I seem to be having way more "tweener" decisions on which iron to hit.  I think this has resulted in me subconsciously not committing to the shot - that is to say backing off a little or knowing I need to hammer it.  Since switching to the ZX5's, I've been choosing to drop down a club on many shots.  This largely from my own range work establishing distances.  Knowing what pure struck lengths are vs. the more typical 80% strike leaves me in unsure-land more so on these courses.  Lots of false fronts, particularly tough with front flags, that do not allow just short shots to bounce or roll on; for sure on shots with high descent angle.  This is where I'm thinking an extra 3-4 yards and lower descent angle could help. 

Maybe I'll visit the PING booth and hit the G425's and i230's against my gamers, off the turf, and see what they think about the ball height.  

I don't mind hitting any of my irons truly. The confidence better hitting my 9 and 6 I would say are the same. What i do try to avoid is going hard at a club to get the extra distance. I would rather try to have a bit too much, this is also something with arccos where my miss was always short vs long so taking the extra club proved beneficial. 

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

In reading this and @cnosilresponses, I take it neither of you feel that being able to hit the next club up improves odds of a better strike and less dispersion (or that any gain is miniscule)? I know my confidence increases grabbing my 6i vs. 5i. As I mentioned in my OP, I feel like I could trade some ball height for distance. 

Maybe it's just these courses I'm now playing, but I seem to be having way more "tweener" decisions on which iron to hit.  I think this has resulted in me subconsciously not committing to the shot - that is to say backing off a little or knowing I need to hammer it.  Since switching to the ZX5's, I've been choosing to drop down a club on many shots.  This largely from my own range work establishing distances.  Knowing what pure struck lengths are vs. the more typical 80% strike leaves me in unsure-land more so on these courses.  Lots of false fronts, particularly tough with front flags, that do not allow just short shots to bounce or roll on; for sure on shots with high descent angle.  This is where I'm thinking an extra 3-4 yards and lower descent angle could help. 

Maybe I'll visit the PING booth and hit the G425's and i230's against my gamers, off the turf, and see what they think about the ball height.  

Good topic,  but I am not sure it aligns with a discussion on loft.   I think this may fall more into course management and mental preparedness to hit a shot.   
 

sure grabbing a 6 might give you more confidence than a 5 but a 7 probably gives you more than a 6 and we could probably continue that down to the bottoms of the bag.   Why do we have more confidence, think 3 vs 4 wood or 5 wood.  Generalizing, short shaft and more loft tends to give us a better strike and if we hit a club well that gives us confidence.   This part is about mental preparedness; you have to commit with whatever club you pull.   
 

Tweener   distances, front pins, false fronts is about course management, club selection, and being able to choke down on a club or take a partial swing and get a club to go a specific distance. There will almost always be gaps between clubs.   When you see a front flag or a false front, change the strategy from roll on to hit the ball to the middle especially when you say you get good height and stopping distance.   Hit the green and 2 putt; maybe get lucky and one putt.    Deloft your clubs and you still have odd distances. 
 

 

[fixyurdivot]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Good topic,  but I am not sure it aligns with a discussion on loft.   I think this may fall more into course management and mental preparedness to hit a shot.   
 

sure grabbing a 6 might give you more confidence than a 5 but a 7 probably gives you more than a 6 and we could probably continue that down to the bottoms of the bag.   Why do we have more confidence, think 3 vs 4 wood or 5 wood.  Generalizing, short shaft and more loft tends to give us a better strike and if we hit a club well that gives us confidence.   This part is about mental preparedness; you have to commit with whatever club you pull.   
 

Tweener   distances, front pins, false fronts is about course management, club selection, and being able to choke down on a club or take a partial swing and get a club to go a specific distance. There will almost always be gaps between clubs.   When you see a front flag or a false front, change the strategy from roll on to hit the ball to the middle especially when you say you get good height and stopping distance.   Hit the green and 2 putt; maybe get lucky and one putt.    Deloft your clubs and you still have odd distances. 
 

 

Great, add course management as yet another aspect of this game I suck at .  Just throwing this out there so you know I'm not the only one with flawed thinking about this topic.  

 

[David Leighton Reid]

I have a loft/lie machine so it is easy to tinker with the lofts and lies.  My irons are set at 2° strong to make up for distance I have lost as I have gotten older.  I have never been a long striker of the ball, but I remember in my younger days playing a 48° PW at 110 yards and now I play a 44° PW at the same distance.  So basically, I have lost 1 club in distance.  The other change I have made is bending my irons to 2° upright which turned my fade into straight/light draw ball flight.  

[Jim Shaw]

great post by fixyurdivot, and yes we have moved to another topic however, I feel, a very important one. Course management decisions are directly related to skill and experience I believe, by that I mean it isnt a good idea to decide to commit to a shot you have not practiced or comfortable with, you could pull it off but odds are you won't. "tween" shots are part of the game as fixyurdivot stated, it is very rare but I do hear the odd pro say "my numbers were exact all day" and they say it as if, "that was lucky" so you have to have a plan to hit tween shots, there are lots of ways to do it and lots of advice given, in my case I have gone with "NIck Faldo's" clock system, ie, 40 yd shot take hands to 8 o'clock, If you are right handed, 60 yd shot take hands to 9 o'clock, that is with my 56 degree, I do the same with my other irons probably to the 8 iron. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

In reading this and @cnosilresponses, I take it neither of you feel that being able to hit the next club up improves odds of a better strike and less dispersion (or that any gain is miniscule)? I know my confidence increases grabbing my 6i vs. 5i. As I mentioned in my OP, I feel like I could trade some ball height for distance. 

What typically happens is people club up then get scared that it’s too much club and end up decelerating and hit a worse shot. Similar when they think they don’t have enough club they swing harder thinking they are swing faster and again end up with an worse shot.

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

to be having way more "tweener" decisions on which iron to hit.  I think this has resulted in me subconsciously not committing to the shot - that is to say backing off a little or knowing I need to hammer it.

Curiosity questions about course management/approach to what you are thinking as you figure out what to hit into a green. Are you looking at only distance to the pin? Are you considering your rollout from a shot and whether you want to be long rather than short or vice versa. You mention some false fronts wouldn’t it be better to be long than short? Are you looking at where the pin is and considering what type of shot such as a lower trajectory or is it always same type of shot into the green with a full swing?

[Jim Shaw]

Wow, great questions, the short answer is all of the above. One of the fun parts of golf, in my opinion, is the options that each situation presents itself. That's why it is imperative to practice all options if you have the time. If you don’t currently have the time to do that, find a “go to” shot that works for you 75 percent of the time. When you get to be an old fart like me you have time to work on stuff. 
2 comments as an interesting side bar, 1- watch your playing partners to see wht their go to shots are, in particular one that is a lower handicap than you 2- I have had instances, though few and far between, where I visualize say a “soft lofted chip to a tight lie” and when it leaves my club it comes out low, 2 hop and stop, usually turns out ok but funny that muscle memory takes over