Modern world

[revkev]

IMO There are some ridiculous things in professional sports given our modern circumstance and technological capability.

 

Human umpires calling balls and strikes in baseball? It's a joke in today's world. Likewise the lack of fulltime refs in football or the lack of a review of every play system from above. Teams responsible for the footballs that they will use? That's beyond belief.

 

In golf it's players having to keep score. Really? This isn't 1920, this isn't us in our Friday skins game. You can't figue out a way to officially keep their score so that none of the on course competitors have to?

 

It's a modern world after all.

[Zeasy]

But why? Why shouldn't the players keep their score?

[PlaidJacket]

I've got to disagree Rev. It's the human element that's still there for golf. Baseball too and I'd don't even watch it anymore. Football? Bleh. (Pro anyway) But Golf? Let's try and keep it what it's meant to be. And besides... there's just something about marking down a score, signing it and turning it in. It says I made that score and I'll sign my name to it. For better or worse.

Golf is about the individual. There's no team dependency. It's about integrity and honesty to name a couple. You make a score on a hole and you own it. Sometimes in a Modern World the simple things are still the best.

Here's to pencils and score cards. Somethings are best left unchanged.

[Bogey in The Woods]

I will not go as far as PlaidJacket on this. But as far as golf is concerned, we are a sport that constantly speaks of tradition. We speak of heritage and history. In other portions of the MGS community we extol Ben Hogan as an example of what this game is in the same breath we use to claim our excitement over the new Hogan clubs.

 

You want technology in golf? OK.

Range Finders

Gps

SkyCaddy

Game Golf

On TV:

Ball flight tracking

3d greens analysis.

 

There isa ton of Modern World Tech in our game. But lets never forget where we came from.

[Undershooter]

I will not go as far as PlaidJacket on this. But as far as golf is concerned, we are a sport that constantly speaks of tradition. We speak of heritage and history. In other portions of the MGS community we extol Ben Hogan as an example of what this game is in the same breath we use to claim our excitement over the new Hogan clubs.

You want technology in golf? OK.

Range Finders

Gps

SkyCaddy

Game Golf

On TV:

Ball flight tracking

3d greens analysis.

There isa ton of Modern World Tech in our game. But lets never forget where we came from.

But to Rev's point, pros don't get to use any of those things on the course. They should definitely get to use yardage devices.

[BK in TEXAS]

Simple yardage devices would speed up play immensely.

[silver & black]

I understand the sentiment for tradition. When it gets to being "professional", it changes things. When money is on the line, "things" need to be correct. Human error should be kept out of it, if possible. I'm not sure that golf suffers the same aggregious bumbles that other sports do, though.

[PlaidJacket]

But to Rev's point, pros don't get to use any of those things on the course. They should definitely get to use yardage devices.

 

Sure they do. Before an official round begins. And... they have something much better and more accurate. It's called a Caddy with a detailed yardage book that many times has been refined over years of on course experience/knowledge. I'd take that any day over using a Skycaddie or Bushnell range finder.

[Mr_Theoo]

What about the times when a pro signs his scorecard only to later be notified of some rules violation and is DQed?

[Undershooter]

Sure they do. Before an official round begins. And... they have something much better and more accurate. It's called a Caddy with a detailed yardage book that many times has been refined over years of on course experience/knowledge. I'd take that any day over using a Skycaddie or Bushnell range finder.

I'm not saying take away caddies but it would be nice for the caddies to have a rangefinder. It would speed up play and take a bunch of guess work out of it. I can't tell you many times I've had to watch a caddie walk something off to get a yardage.

[revkev]

Silver and Black got my point.  I agree that there should be a human element - the player's!  There doesn't need to be a third party human element (my marker wrote down the wrong score and in the heat of the moment after the round I signed the wrong card and was DQ'd) any more.  If used properly technology allows for the human element of player ability to determine the outcome without outside interference.

[dru_]

I'm going to go a step further.  There is no reason that technology shouldn't be part of the game even at the amateur level, and all in the name of pace of play and engaging younger players.  I'm all for traditions, but there is absolutely no reason we need caddies climbing trees to 'identify' a ball that two cameras, and 500 people watched land in a tree.

[Bogey in The Woods]

I'm going to go a step further.  There is no reason that technology shouldn't be part of the game even at the amateur level, and all in the name of pace of play and engaging younger players.  I'm all for traditions, but there is absolutely no reason we need caddies climbing trees to 'identify' a ball that two cameras, and 500 people watched land in a tree.

 

 

Now in that instance, i agree 1000%. That was ridiculous. 

 

The pros are paid very well to do what they do. It is more than being able to hit the shot. They need to know what shot to hit. Caddies make the money they do for walking those courses and getting those yardages. Making those copious notes in the yardage books based on knowing their pro.

 

For the pros, part of the reason they make the money they do is for being able to figure out the shot without all the technology.  

 

When it comes to rules violations, that is on the player and caddie. revkev - if a pro  makes a mistake and signs in "the heat of the moment" they screwed up. The rules are there for players and caddies alike. Now if a mistake is made outside the knowledge of the player or caddie and they suffer for it, you are right; changes need to be made. 

[sp0rtsfan86]

There is a point I agree. I remember reading golf digest about a few players switching from electronic scorekeeping to handing in scorecards. Half the fun they said was arguing over scores. That's what they enjoy. So the question is what do you enjoy?

 

For me it's the fact that I can go out and play a round and yes, I keep my own score unless it's a tournament. The one tournament I play in every year or used to had the rotating system. I loved it because you were always focused on making everything right and you always knew where you were in relation to the group. 

 

But for tournaments with so much on the line, why can't they go to electronic scoreboards? That would make it faster and prevent the once or twice a year DQ.

[revkev]

Now in that instance, i agree 1000%. That was ridiculous. 

 

The pros are paid very well to do what they do. It is more than being able to hit the shot. They need to know what shot to hit. Caddies make the money they do for walking those courses and getting those yardages. Making those copious notes in the yardage books based on knowing their pro.

 

For the pros, part of the reason they make the money they do is for being able to figure out the shot without all the technology.  

 

When it comes to rules violations, that is on the player and caddie. revkev - if a pro  makes a mistake and signs in "the heat of the moment" they screwed up. The rules are there for players and caddies alike. Now if a mistake is made outside the knowledge of the player or caddie and they suffer for it, you are right; changes need to be made.

 

Understand these next comments are meant in the spirit of fun, like we are having a beer together at the 19th hole. I knew this thread had the potential to spark debate and I have enough respect for all of you good folks that I don't mind being opposed in the least.

 

So why don't we go back to the hitter in baseball calling balls and strikes? How about players calling there own fouls in basketball?

 

Golf is leaking oil in a big way. The game has to be willing to make reasonable changes to attract and keep players and also to attract and keep viewers. Instead it bans a putting style that brings enjoyment for recreational players and seemingly ignores opportunities to bring the sport into the 21st century. Could you imagine it, the clock runs out at the end of the Super Bowl. But wait, no champion can be crowned until the score card is signed. How many yards did we gain on that play in the middle of the second quarter again?

[Bogey in The Woods]

Understand these next comments are meant in the spirit of fun, like we are having a beer together at the 19th hole. I knew this thread had the potential to spark debate and I have enough respect for all of you good folks that I don't mind being opposed in the least.

 

So why don't we go back to the hitter in baseball calling balls and strikes? How about players calling there own fouls in basketball?

 

Golf is leaking oil in a big way. The game has to be willing to make reasonable changes to attract and keep players and also to attract and keep viewers. Instead it bans a putting style that brings enjoyment for recreational players and seemingly ignores opportunities to bring the sport into the 21st century. Could you imagine it, the clock runs out at the end of the Super Bowl. But wait, no champion can be crowned until the score card is signed. How many yards did we gain on that play in the middle of the second quarter again?

 

Ok ok, i will continue this in the spirit of the 19th hole. youre buying this round right?

 

So I am using my magic wand (waving it grandly in the air like Merlin)  

 

"HOCUS POCUS ! THOU SHALL NOW MAKE REVKEV THE ALL KNOWING ARBITER OF GOLF RULES! ALAKAZAM!!!!"

 

Now what i have done sir, is grant you total control over all things golf. So other than granting me the Nike Volt driver (thanks by the way), i would request an all inclusive list of what changes you are making to golf, so that we may all adhere to them (but really as a way to keep this thread alive for what I know will be a REALLY long time). 

 

Lets hear it brother.........

[dru_]

what if we flip this and look at it in terms of technology that we could have in play that we don't.  Let's discuss things that *could* be in play, not things that we as ams have access to, but the pros do not.

 

So, imagine this, when you buy your balls, you register the box with your cart, or mobile phone.  Your clubs register the balls too via Bluetooth LE or ANT+, basically a very low energy wireless tech.  You grab the driver from the bag, tee up the ball and smack it out there into the deep rough on the left.  your partner hits his, but he is middle of the fairway. drive out to the balls, and instead of hunting through the grass, the cart or phone has connected to the ball and is providing you with a finder to fine the ball.  The swing was recorded, the impact was identified by the club. and logged.  When you take the next stroke that registers the club and impact and uses the gps coords of the impact to log a point to point to give you distance and location of the prior shots.  no more entering your metrics, and the whole tapping the club via game golf is gone. slick, but go further.

 

Flag sticks can have gps locations, you can determine distnace from them. cups can have sensors to detect when a ball falls in (and could read impact counts since last cup entry) to record strokes for a course wide interactive leaderboard. You could even detect movement from within the ball when a loose impediment allows a ball to move uninintneionally. 

 

None of this is out of the scope of reality, today. In all honesty, USGA has done a bunch of work to hold back golf, and prevent technology adoption. Golf is hard enough. Technology could make it easier and more approachable by reducing 'lost ball hunts', clarifying rules of the game and scoring.  Courses could integrate technologies into the courses themselves to dramatically improve both the game and the ability to service the players, but this cultural resistance to technology that is endemic to the game is the euqivalent of a bunch of old guys standing on the fornt porch telling the kids to get the hell off their lawns.

 

I am a techie by trade and avocation. I respect resistance to change for the sake of change, and even  apragmatic slow adoption to ensure that the technologies are 'ready', but when it becomes pure curmudgeon behavior I start to have issues. 

 

To me, that is largely where golf is at.

 

A pro is not a pro because he can read a green, or judge a distance. He/she is a pro because they can take that information and execute on it. Scoring, measuring, and forecasting, this is all just information. Allowing it doesn't provide a material benefit to the player at any level so long as it is available equally. Te player ultimately has to execute on the information at hand, and that is what gets scored.

[Bogey in The Woods]

Dru, 

Love the concept. I thought that they have tried trackable balls before. Thought it fell through. If you placed some sort of RFID chip into a ball, what type of effects would be the result in ball performane?

 

I would love to only have to buy a ball or two because I couldnt lose it in the woods. 

 

So let me take your idea one step further:

 

Start another professional golf league. Allow any and all technology in. Why are clubs balls non conforming? Cuz PGA sayz so? Not here. Make it an anything goes league. GPS? yup! Rangefinders? You bet! We will keep your score so you dont have to? of course! Wanna use carts too? why the heck not! as long as you hit the ball with a club of some sort and no in ball tech can change the ball flight in midair, you are good to go.

 

how does all this help golf? Dont misread me. I am not against it. Just curious as to what you think the benefits will be.

[dru_]

Actually, you hit the issue that I have with all of it. I believe that game play equipment needs limits, and that is more or less my point about information versus execution.  To me, the guiding principle for technology allowances should fall along those lines, with one exception that I will address in a minute.

 

Any device or technology that provides information, scoring, or ruling benefit is allowable. Anything that materially alters the performance of the club, or ball must be certified by the regulatory body. 

 

Here is the exception, and it exists because of the fine line between information and execution. Any device that provides alignment or trajectory aid beyond the body and surface of the club head is not allowed. Why? Laser alignment devices on the club head providing a targeting line would materially alter the performance of the club, but could still be deemed 'information'.

 

However, integrating other technologies (like a verbal note from a cart computer when a ball lands out of bounds of the rules and scoring of such.  Same thing with lateral hazards. Automated scoring, automated ball tracking, automated stat tracking would all have a direct impact on simplifying the games rules, while also improving pace of play.

 

Let's look at a sport where much of this has been done for a while because the demands of the tech are lower, bowling, which has made a resurgence as a recreational sport in recent years. Why? many of the complexities of the game have been removed.  No longer does everyone need to understand the rules of scoring, the machines will guide them if they don't know. Foul lines, automated pin setters, automated scores, automatic ball returns, have all simplified the game, and opened the way for recreational usages with music, backlights, and a younger, more 'fun' atmosphere at the rec level, while still offering advantages to the amateur and professional players.  What has remained constant? the equipment the game is played with, the balls remain pretty close to the original, the lanes are still the same dimensions, and the gutters remain (despite the pop up bumpers for the kids). 

 

It has worked well there, why can't it work for golf?  Yes, I can see a world where you could have evening golf leagues playing with trackable light up balls, music piped onto the course via ground speakers, with subdued LED lighting on the course instead of the giant spots of old that homeowners and municipalities so object to. 

Even cart service can be addressed, with wifi, beacons and integrated ordering, you no longer need a 'beverage cart' driving in circles, you can now do all your food and beverage service on a per order delivery model. Let's face it, the whole industry right now is mired in traditional inefficiencies and they are holding the game back.

[dru_]

I should note, that some of these things are slowly making their way out there, but I know that the current costs of the systems are absolutely insane. I am all for a reasonable profit, but the margins on some of the automatic systems available right now are beyond obscene. I've seen quotes of GPS equipped carts carrying 300% mark ups over standard carts, with monthly service charges that would make congress flinch.

[Kenny B]

Hey kids!  Get the hell off my lawn!  Well, that makes me an old guy standing on the front porch.

 

If this game were invented this century, I am sure that there would be much more technology incorporated into it than the current rules allow.  But it wasn't.  Call me a traditionalist, but the integrity of the game and in honor of the memories of all the golfing greats up to about 10 years ago, is at stake.  I want to play the game like they did (I wish I could play the game like they did!!)  It's hard, but that's a challenge that keeps me going.  I don't have all that many years left and I understand that I will probably only get worse, but it still drives me to be as good as I can be with what I have to work with.

 

DQs are really embarrassing, but it's part of the game. It's part of the learning experience.  However, I do object to the penalty of a moved ball that can only be seen by a zoomed-in high-speed camera.  You call it on yourself. period.  If you obviously cheat, people won't play with you.

 

Why is it that you should be able to play a game, but not know the rules.  In other sports the participants know the rules, they just see how far they can bend them or break them hoping not to get caught.  In golf you have to have honor and integrity.  If you don't, then you are not playing golf... you're playing AT golf.  Different game.  Sure, available technology can make the game easier.  But in my mind, it changes the game and you would have to put an Asterisk from that day forward.  

[Jmikecpa]

To Kenny's point the incident years back when Michelle Wie was DQ'd the next day after 12 hours of tape review was just a disaster and should never have happened.  Player's call it on themselves and need to live with the consequences of their actions and should be able to police the game.  

[revkev]

I will respectfully disagree, the embarrassing thing about the Wie DQ was that it took so long.

 

Back to Dru's post. I apologize if I missed it but I think you are missing the best part of your technologically infused ball. Faster play! The game must get faster and be more fun. In a sense though we have two things going at once. In starting this thread I had in mind professionals playing at the highest level. I think it's nieve to ask them to police themselves. They are going to push boundaries and go beyond. Yes they should police themselves but that should not mean that if someone sees a rules violation other than the players they can't ask about it. A rules violation is a rules violation. Likewise it's a waste of time to have players keeping their own score.

 

As for us, when we play in competition we best play by the rules. Don't be afraid to play some for fun though. You guys have read some of the rules my friends and I use. We have fun, it's fun to call your 18 handicap buddy back when he hits one 185 over water to 10 feet. . It's fun when he calls you back after you've chipped in only to double up on him too.

 

My rules would include playing fast and playing for fun.

[Jmikecpa]

Rev, that was my point.  It took a day of tape review to realize that she took a bad drop by like six inches which had no bearing whatsoever on the next shot.  How does it take that long to figure that out???  

 

To the same point, if she had called it on herself the next day and took the DQ she would have been preserving the integrity of the game.

[revkev]

Rev, that was my point. It took a day of tape review to realize that she took a bad drop by like six inches which had no bearing whatsoever on the next shot. How does it take that long to figure that out???

 

To the same point, if she had called it on herself the next day and took the DQ she would have been preserving the integrity of the game.

I understand but isn't that because the tours aren't employing common sense by having someone in a booth to review video during the course of the round? Just that possibility would be enough to remove the temptation to cheat from most players minds. Very few golfers are willing to risk being called a cheater.

 

Who's got the next round BTW?

[Kor.A.Door]

What about the times when a pro signs his scorecard only to later be notified of some rules violation and is DQed?

If they need to do this it should be done before the player signs the card, many times they could put a hold in the players scorecard until they review the play, and make determination.

[Kor.A.Door]

By using all the technology after the fact, and then using it to disqualify participants makes nonsense either. They don't want to use the technology as something happens, but they will pour over footage using the same technology they refused to use earlier. Use the tech. That us available, it doesn't change the integrity of the game, it makes it better, the object is to get it correct, and sometimes the player makes a mistake, why not correct it as it is happening instead of waiting.

[jaxbeachpackerfan]

If they need to do this it should be done before the player signs the card, many times they could put a hold in the players scorecard until they review the play, and make determination.

I think they're trying to do that now.  If you saw Aaron Baddeley on 17 last Friday, after his second ball in the water he made a very 'casual' drop of a new ball.  They told him right after the round that their video review showed an improper drop because his arm wasn't fully extended.  He was allowed to add in the penalty and sign a correct scorecard (not that it made any difference, he was way over the cut line).

[revkev]

The point of using the available technology would be to avoid the painful need to DQ or add penalty strokes to a player after the fact.  The Tiger Master's fiasco from a few years ago was ridiculous.  Everyone was concerned about an illegal drop when it occurred, for that matter if technology were being employed the entire matter could have been remedied by an onsite official receiving word from the booth and correcting it before it occurred.

 

I want to know who played the best, not who legislated the game properly.  Sorry I'm all for the use of technology to speed up play for AMs and insure a level playing field for pros.

[BIG STU]

I will throw my .02 for what it is worth. I believe in the honesty and intregrity of the game. Now as far as rules the average recreational golfer does not know or practice half the rules and to them it does not make any difference. You have to remember our crowd on here are all avid golfers and love the game or we would not be on here.

Now as far as some technology it may even hurt the regular game. I would be for some of the changes on scoring and rules procedures in Professional events. But too much technology may hurt the average everyday play. Let me give you an example. When I raced cars we had manual scorers employed by the track they marked lap times when a particular car they were assigned crossed the start finish line. Now they use electric transponders even some of the weekend local tracks do. The problem is that the smaller financed teams have to buy and maintain transponders or rent them from the track. It among other things is extra added expense for the teams and a lot of people simply cannot afford to race period. It has hurt a lot of local short tracks. In golf it has been already perceived that it is too expensive mainly because the sheep have been led to believe you have to have the latest greatest weapon to play. Also according to what I read here and other blogs green fees are on the rise and with today's economy one cannot justify spending a lot on a round of golf. Slow play has always been with us even 30 years ago. I can remember in the Charlotte N.C. area public golf on the weekends simply sucked because of slow play. In fact I quit playing for a couple of years because of that issue until we started getting deals in the summer in Pinehurst NC which was only an 1 1/2 hr drive away. I am not smart enough to have a solution for all the issues in golf now. I guess If I was that smart I would be the president or something. Really all who have posted have had some good ideas and great insight but I don't know how they would work