What/How Did You Practice Today?

[cksurfdude]

22 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

Long story on this, all the work I put in last year got over ruled doing speed work and I lost a lot of what I did. I have a plan now for better ingraining, slow repetition swings and speeding up once comfortable. Like a baby learning to walk. First they lea to roll over, then crawl, then walk, then run.

 

21 hours ago, RichL85 said:

It seems to be that there is a period of time where one aspect improves faster than the others, usually the case being speed increases, but it throws the rhythm out of sync and the body starts compensating for being out of positions. It's a bit frustrating to try to resync to the faster speed, especially if you are trying to see on course results at the same time.

 

20 hours ago, chisag said:

... Jumping with both feet into Speed Training produced the same results as you Rich. I figured if I was doing the program, I should do the program. And literally speed training has you swinging as fast as you can right from the start, and then try to swing even faster than that. In theory I retrain my muscles to increase speed that I have put a governor on for 40 years. But in reality after one month my rhythm was completely destroyed and my muscles had learned to swing as fast as they can but they couldn't care less about syncing everything together. It took me about 2 months to get back to my normal swing. 

 

Wow I'm glad all you guys mentioned each of your own .. interestingly similar .. experience with speed training -- as much as I "need" more distance, and as tempting as it is to get into speed training, I'd kinda suspected that for me the better approach is to build a better foundation of a swing; ie better technique will inherently produce more distance with .. hopefully .. better on-course results.

Work In Progress!

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

9 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

 

 

 

Wow I'm glad all you guys mentioned each of your own .. interestingly similar .. experience with speed training -- as much as I "need" more distance, and as tempting as it is to get into speed training, I'd kinda suspected that for me the better approach is to build a better foundation of a swing; ie better technique will inherently produce more distance with .. hopefully .. better on-course results.

Work In Progress!

Totally. Based on my lesson yesterday my 15% feel 7i were going 140. My full bore with my current technique is 170ish. I presume with my technique work I can surpass that. Technique is king in my eyes. 

[chisag]

2 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

Technique is king in my eyes. 

 

... Exactly. If you have been swinging at a consistent speed for a long time, attempting to "swing as fast as you can" means getting outside your comfort zone and that usually means losing your technique. Again in hindsight I think a better approach for me would be  attempting to "swing a little faster" while maintaining my technique. So if you are swinging a driver 95mph, instead of trying to swing it 105 without a ball, try getting to 97. If after a couple months you are now at 97 for a baseline, attempt to get to 99. At some point you will experience diminishing returns or stall at a given speed so time to stop. For those young and flexible, you can probably continue push yourself further but for older players with an established swing and proper technique, adding 3-5 mph would seem like at attainable goal if they are willing to put in months of training.

... But again maintaining your technique. If you haven't tried speed training, I think some may be surprised how difficult it is to maintain your technique and swing faster. I tried swinging much faster my first session and was surprised to see I was swinging about 2 mph faster but felt like I was swinging soooo much faster. In order to get to 5-10 mph faster I had to abandon my technique because swing speed theory says you are just training your muscles (and brain) to swing faster and technique isn't important because speed training swing and your swing with a ball are completely different. That theory just didn't work for me. 

[GaryF]

On 7/6/2023 at 1:26 PM, chisag said:

 

 

... Awesome posts from both of you and you guys have touched on what I feel is the cornerstone of improvement as I said in an earlier post. baby steps. incremental improvement. start with a teaspoon and not a shovel. 

... Jumping with both feet into Speed Training produced the same results as you Rich. I figured if I was doing the program, I should do the program. And literally speed training has you swinging as fast as you can right from the start, and then try to swing even faster than that. In theory I retrain my muscles to increase speed that I have put a governor on for 40 years. But in reality after one month my rhythm was completely destroyed and my muscles had learned to swing as fast as they can but they couldn't care less about syncing everything together. It took me about 2 months to get back to my normal swing. 

... That said, I may try again at sometime. But I will approach it like I am my own instructor and will attempt to incrementally increase my speed. Every training session try to swing just a little faster. Unless everything works I will not be swinging as fast as I can until faaaaar down the road, and maybe never. DeChambeau is an extreme example but he found a point of diminishing return in swinging as fast as he can. I think a more realistic goal for most of us is "swing as fast as you can while maintaining your rhythm and control." Trying to add 10 mph of swing speed is not on my radar (pun intended ) but adding maybe 3-5mph would be my goal. 

Last fall, I was intrigued with the concept of speed training but then read some comments that some were incurring injuries because they really weren’t in good enough shape to handle it.  Being older and having some significant lower back issues, I decided I should first focus on conditioning during my 8-10 weeks of winter non-golf.  I had already been working on extending my flexibility with some yoga exercises, but then added several rotational exercises with a kenesis machine focused on strengthening my core and simulating a golf swing motion with a 2-handle 20 lb SPRI ball -again focusing on rotation and my core. I also added some general arm, leg weighted exercises but I think weighted forward and reverse lunges worked muscle groups used in the golf swing motion.

Last year my driver carry distance was around 200 yards and I was estimating my club head speed at around 88-90.  This year I have been getting a carry of around 215 +/-,   and recently hit drives with a foresight setup.  My avg carry was 216 and avg clubhead speed was 94.6 and a peak of 96.2.

However my ‘training’ did get cut short by about 3 weeks.  Last fall I was experiencing mild elbow tendinitis and after 6-7 weeks of the aforementioned exercises, the tendinitis flared to the point I had to stop the kenesis and SPRI exercises.  This winter I am hoping to re-engage and see if I can add another 10-12 yards.  For me, adding speed is entirely about strengthening my core and general muscle group exercises.  None of what I did caused any deterioration of my actual swing mechanics, 

Edited July 8, 2023 by GaryF

[chisag]

49 minutes ago, GaryF said:

Last fall, I was intrigued with the concept of speed training but then read some comments that some were incurring injuries because they really weren’t in good enough shape to handle it.  Being older and having some significant lower back issues, I decided I should first focus on conditioning during my 8-10 weeks of winter non-golf.  I had already been working on extending my flexibility with some yoga exercises, but then added several rotational exercises with a kenesis machine focused on strengthening my core and simulating a golf swing motion with a 2-handle 20 lb SPRI ball -again focusing on rotation and my core. I also added some general arm, leg weighted exercises but I think weighted forward and reverse lunges worked muscle groups used in the golf swing motion.

Last year my driver carry distance was around 200 yards and I was estimating my club head speed at around 88-90.  This year I have been getting a carry of around 215 +/-,   and recently hit drives with a foresight setup.  My avg carry was 216 and avg clubhead speed was 94.6 and a peak of 96.2.

However my ‘training’ did get cut short by about 3 weeks.  Last fall I was experiencing mild elbow tendinitis and after 6-7 weeks of the aforementioned exercises, the tendinitis flared to the point I had to stop the kenesis and SPRI exercises.  This winter I am hoping to re-engage and see if I can add another 10-12 yards.  For me, adding speed is entirely about strengthening my core and general muscle group exercises.  None of what I did caused any deterioration of my actual swing mechanics, 

 

... Great stuff Gary! While not adding swing speed, I credit the same kind of exercises for me not losing club head speed. At 70 I am still hitting the ball about as far as I did in my mid 50's. All of it helps your golf swing without effecting your rhythm, and becoming stronger and more flexible you will of course naturally hit the ball further. But I have neglected Yoga after some shoulder problems and your post has reminded me I need to start again. Namastay. 

[Bang60]

I've trying to improve core strength and flexibility which I think will keep my body golf fit for the future, distance while in the back of my mind I'd much prefer tight dispersion

[Big moose]

Still trying to get my chipping and pitching dialed in. I figured out I was too close to the ball at address and I was bent over too much. I was constantly blading the ball over the green, since I changed my setup I haven't bladed one. Now I just can't get myself to hit it hard enough to get to the hole and I keep leaving myself 15 footers for par. As for my driver, I have an epic flash 10.5 degree that I installed an accra tour z st stiff shaft in last year. I struggled to hit the ball consistently so I went to a place near me that has a simulator and found out my spin rate was 4500, that was not the best shaft for me. I then went to a mitsubishi tensei av blue reg. Flex. Since I made that change I am hitting a slight fade and my carry distance is around 220, I didn't miss one fairway yesterday. Hopefully what your working on gives you positive results. 

[GaryF]

8 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Great stuff Gary! While not adding swing speed, I credit the same kind of exercises for me not losing club head speed. At 70 I am still hitting the ball about as far as I did in my mid 50's. All of it helps your golf swing without effecting your rhythm, and becoming stronger and more flexible you will of course naturally hit the ball further. But I have neglected Yoga after some shoulder problems and your post has reminded me I need to start again. Namastay. 

I just turned 70 last month.  When I was in my 40s they used some gizmo behind the ball that indicated I had a SS of 96, and that was an all arms swing.  About 4 years ago I took some lessons and he completely changed my swing after I indicated I was willing to buy into the changes and practice.  I was feeling pretty desperate so I did exactly as instructed.  I’m on the smaller side being 5-9 165, but today I’m hitting the ball better and farther than anytime in my life - if only I had made the changes years ago.  

I have a set routine, whether getting ready to play or just go to the range.  15-20 minutes of stretching and a few yoga exercises are essential before I leave the house.  It took awhile, but the tendinitis has disappeared.  One habit I know would be good but I just don’t do it, is to stretch afterwards.  Once I started playing, I did stop going to the gym, but recently have started swimming laps which seems to help keeping me stretched out.

I’ll start my training regimen next Dec but probably use a lighter SPRI ball.  I think 10 yards more driver carry would be about adding 3mph which would put me at 99 mph which has a nice ring to it.  But as you said, it I keep the status quo and not lose SS, that’s a very good thing too.

https://www.amazon.com/SPRI-Dual-Xerball-Medicine-12-Pound/dp/B006SEQQF0/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3OA241NDXVXUJ&keywords=xerball&qid=1688821742&sprefix=Xerba%2Caps%2C381&sr=8-2&th=1

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by GaryF

[Dweed]

Was raining today, which usually means clean the house day. Managed to slip out to the barn to hit balls into the net until my clean up turn was called. I shake the rugs out and vacuum the carpets and the wood floors.

[MalYoung27]

Worked on my approach shots from 100 yards in. I recently bought some Vokey SM9 wedges and am trying to dial in trajectory and distances. Had a great round yesterday by concentrating on my swing tempo with great results. Funny but true that the basics cure most issues on the course although the mind can be our worst enemy!

[Ding-dong]

Couldn’t play today, so did go to the range with the garmin thingy to do a simulation round. 
No warm up balls , just straight in to it after a few stretches and practice swings. Shooting straight onto the range gives it some perspective. Hit a few wayward shots that would have been bogeys, I am sure. So with that in mind, the -7 score is a little non representative, but it makes you hit different clubs and shots.

I didn’t play driver off every tee and opted to play 3 wood for position.

I then hit the remaining balls with my 8 iron. I definitely have an issue with pulling it, I normally hit a slight draw, but these were toe strike pulls. So I am face closed and getting away from in to out. I tried a few things but the strike didn’t migrate back to middle, and there was heel wear from the mat. 
 

This is the issue with practice, I just get left with more questions

[BobBC78]

Putting practice inside today. Thus far in 2023 (using a Ping Anser) my putting SG is 3 strokes worse than it in 2022 (using a SeeMore). So, I worked on setup and Kenyon's gate drill using my SeeMore. Plan to do this for a couple of days, then take it to the putting green later this week for some testing to determine if I should put it back in the bag. At issue is that I had a SAM lab fitting for the Ping, which is 2* flatter than the SeeMore, so using the latter means adopting slightly higher hands. Additionally, I used a Claw grip for quite a bit of 2022 and all of 2021, when I also putted better, so I'm considering switching back. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Same swing work practice today. Slow, slow, fast. Had the sun helping me by giving me a shadow to show my points I need 

[JerryB]

Hit the range before our round yesterday.  Not something I usually do but with the issues I'd been having lately in addition to new clubs, it felt necessary to get a little more dialed in.  It wasn't a "fix my problems" session but more of a "roll with what you got" situation.

Some highlights:

Figured out where to aim in order to draw my irons back to where I want the ball to land.  I've never had a consistent flight pattern so I would always aim for the middle of the green and hope for the best.  Now I've got a regular draw and my miss is more of a straight shot; aiming just off the green in most cases looks to be my new normal.

Made a slight hand position adjustment to my hybrid setup which has my contact much more in the middle of the face rather than toe-y push fades.

Did several wedge chips and got all the garbage swings out of my system for the day, lol.  I don't normally get the opportunity for pre-round practice and it shows, but I think I need to be the obnoxious guy taking seven or eight practice swings before a first shot in a round and particularly the first time I pull a wedge near the green.

[Haro]

Practice swings  

I figure the ones I need in order of importance 

1 long putts. I doing the Tiger practice two looking at the hole then putt. I’m finding the practice helps me regulate how much I fan and length of arc stroke to make the ball get as close to the hole as possible 

short putts or long downhill putts no practice strokes

2. Various chips around the green  I pretty much have to make practice swings to figure out how much swing I need to chip the ball close to the green 

I think almost all the time practice swings for chipping.  When I get to 60 yards plus  which My full LW pitch I don’t need to practice swing the LW 

For regular swings. Just going to the driving range is enough to practice for at the course play   I usually practice draws as that the swing I that is more trouble hitting solidly  impaired yo the fade 

short putts. I been just checking my eye alignment along my stArt line of my putt 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Haro

[StrokerAce]

* weight shift *

I used to sway and am so leery of that now that I don't want to move to the right at all but that was killing any distance I was getting. I finally felt that "stretch" from my left hip, up my left lat, to my left shoulder and what a difference! I have to load my right side before I can deliver into my left... without that it's all hands + arms... no good.

[Camlyn66]

I woke at a golf course and spent an hour today just working on putts from 5-8 feet aka my kryptonite on the golf course. I struggle with the close one get tight hands and poor tempo on my putts causing me to push or pull my putts. Worked on a drill today ti drain 8 putts before I did oh from various distances from 5-8 feet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Same set of swing feels today. Its a hard process to do the same thing over and over, but that is how you ingrain. Slow swings until natural. Jayson requested a video at the end of the week to see how things are going.

[JerryB]

Working on something similar to @Vegan_Golfer_PNW; just trying to commit my takeaway feel to memory.  Whenever I had a few minutes to spare yesterday and this morning, I was in the garage hitting into the net.  Slow backswings.  Pulling different clubs every time:  current clubs, backup clubs, spare clubs, wedges, irons, hybrids.  Getting better feels for how different lofts and lengths all have slightly different characteristics.  

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Also did some small putting practice and I feel like an idiot. For the last 2 months, i have been addressing the face of my putter to the center of my stance with the ball at my pointer toe of lead foot. Watched 2 lab videos and adjusted to the tip of the shaft in the center and the ball by the face. Boom! @cnosil, you might have been onto something

[BobBC78]

Did more putting practice today, working on setup with a mirror followed by Phil Kenyon's start line drill (got to 13 consecutive putts w/o hitting the gate). The rain stopped for long enough to do my Super Speed training late in the afternoon.

[Blaine Dye]

Went and did some Wedge work on the practice green in the sand and behind the bunker I don't know if its a intimidation thing but I struggle when hitting over a bunk and always seem to skull it into the bunker or send it 20 feet past the green  last night made a adjustment to not open the face so much and just have hit the shot and I seem to be hitting the green but I can tell I still have a confidence issue since I know I can hit the shot needed its just if its over I bunker I panic 

[BobBC78]

Mostly short game practice today:

Range: 30, 40 and 50 yard (carry) wedge shots with my gap wedge (checked with PRGR); worked on a chock down 5H shot.

Practice green: chip and run (PW) and soft landing chip with SW. Followed this with a couple of drills that I picked up from Phil Kenyon videos for green reading (with gate) and distance control. 

[GaryF]

When I played my last round on Sunday with my new JPX923 6-GW, I took along my old set SW (54*).  My new GW is 48*.  My previous style of play inside 100 yards was to use 3/4 dead arm swings with my PW, UW, and SW.  yardages for those swings was 85, 75 and 65 yards respectively.  My new GW dead arm swing is ~90?  When I played Sunday, I had a few 75 yard shots and one 55.  I just didn’t have a proper club.  I tried using my old SW for the 55 and tried it with full swings on the others.  All resulted in poor mishits.  It’s just too heavy and the swing/balance doesn’t blend with my new irons.  New 52* and 56* RTX6 wedges that I was fit fircwere ordered yesterday.

So today, I went to the range and worked with my new GW and worked on 3 o’clock and 2 o’clock swings with pretty good success,  yardages are ~60 and 70 yards respectively.  

I also practiced with the other new clubs and really liking the feel and results.  Interesting that my old UW is 50*.  At one time it was my 100 yd club but recently more like my 93-95 club.  My new 48* GW is a solid 105.  What I’m elated over is the high trajectory of the new GW (as well as the other clubs).  Last Monday I hit GW on a 95 yard shot into a stiff wind.  Hit really clean - It landed about 8’ left if the pin, but around 3 yards long (played expecting the wind to hold it up which it did), then spun back about 6’.  I just stood watching how high it went, then shocked to see it come back.  Of course I just missed the birdie putt….but still.  These amazing clubs have Recoil 460 ESX F3 shafts which I can tell makes an amazing difference.  I was fit for these clubs, and they do fit.

Edited July 11, 2023 by GaryF

[Bang60]

52 minutes ago, GaryF said:

When I played my last round on Sunday with my new JPX923 6-GW, I took along my old set SW (54*).  My new GW is 48*.  My previous style of play inside 100 yards was to use 3/4 dead arm swings with my PW, UW, and SW.  yardages for those swings was 85, 75 and 65 yards respectively.  My new GW dead arm swing is ~90?  When I played Sunday, I had a few 75 yard shots and one 55.  I just didn’t have a proper club.  I tried using my old SW for the 55 and tried it with full swings on the others.  All resulted in poor mishits.  It’s just too heavy and the swing/balance doesn’t blend with my new irons.  New 52* and 56* RTX6 wedges that I was fit fircwere ordered yesterday.

So today, I went to the range and worked with my new GW and worked on 3 o’clock and 2 o’clock swings with pretty good success,  yardages are ~60 and 70 yards respectively.  

I also practiced with the other new clubs and really liking the feel and results.  Interesting that my old UW is 50*.  At one time it was my 100 yd club but recently more like my 93-95 club.  My new 48* GW is a solid 105.  What I’m elated over is the high trajectory of the new GW (as well as the other clubs).  Last Monday I hit GW on a 95 yard shot into a stiff wind.  Hit really clean - It landed about 8’ left if the pin, but around 3 yards long (played expecting the wind to hold it up which it did), then spun back about 6’.  I just stood watching how high it went, then shocked to see it come back.  Of course I just missed the birdie putt….but still.  These amazing clubs have Recoil 460 ESX F3 shafts which I can tell makes an amazing difference.  I was fit for these clubs, and they do fit.

Lucky you sir, playing with my dream irons and getting the results pics plz..

[ParFore74x]

More putting practice today. I'm definitely struggling with the putter as of late and it's starting to get to me. Burning the edge of the cup 5-6 times every round and my misses are both left and right. Aim? Face angle? Speed? Tempo? Poor green reading? Whatever it is, I need to get it figured out soon.

[GaryF]

1 hour ago, Bang60 said:

Lucky you sir, playing with my dream irons and getting the results pics plz..

 

[Bang60]

2 hours ago, GaryF said:

 

Gosh feel like I need to rob a bank

WOW

[ctg44]

On 7/8/2023 at 6:57 PM, MalYoung27 said:

Worked on my approach shots from 100 yards in. I recently bought some Vokey SM9 wedges and am trying to dial in trajectory and distances. Had a great round yesterday by concentrating on my swing tempo with great results. Funny but true that the basics cure most issues on the course although the mind can be our worst enemy!

I have found the SM9s to be the absolute best wedges I've ever used.  My son has, and I had, a set of SM8 wedges...and the SM9s just blow the SM8s away.  There's a reason almost all of the pros tossed the SM8s the second the SM9s came out.  Once I added the right shafts for me, I've become a short game master lately and my scores are dropping like rocks....well, that and finally realizing that my stupid habit of using the 60* wedge around the green was killing me.  I played 9 today and had 4 putts under 2' because of some great recovery pitches / chips.  My approach game was garbage, but I still shot a 39 on a tough par 35 course because I kept saving par from crazy lies.  Not sure why I couldn't hit a green, other than I really need to swap my Mizuno 223 PW, the only club of the set I don't like, for a Vokey 46 bent to 45, but at least I kept from making a bunch of bogeys w/ the wedge game.  Practice time is the key here though.  I start and end every range session doing the exact same thing....10-15 yard greenside chip simulations.  When I can drop and stop range balls, I know I'm going to be fine w/ the like-new ProV1s I find in the water from all the other guys who don't spend enough time practicing and take so long to play that I have plenty of time to find free $5 balls!  

 

1 hour ago, Bang60 said:

Gosh feel like I need to rob a bank

WOW

Nah, just wait a couple of weeks and someone will have gotten tired of being a hacker and be ready to dump theirs on eBay for try #765 at finding the right club because they are too stubborn to go get properly fitted or don't want to wait to get the right clubs and bought the 923s off the shelf.  As long as you're willing to do some work and maybe swap shafts and grips, there are deals to be had on even the newest clubs.  I found my son a set of Apex TCBs that looked like the guy had them a week at most with basically 1 round of use on the grips.  These clubs are almost impossible to find right now in new condition or even close to it w/o crazy markup at places like Fairway Jockey...and even then there's a 4-6 week wait most of the time.  With my FedEx account, we got them here in 3 days of another forum by being diligent and negotiating hard.  It probably helped that the shafts were crazy heavy and stiff and only a 6'3" /200 lb., 18-year-old hockey player would find them to be just perfect (Nippon Modus Pro 130X), but even still, he loves them and is firing darts with them.  In short, if you really want the Mizunos (I for sure love my Pro 223s!), then get searching and be willing to tinker.  You never know what shaft / loft / lie combo someone might have for sale that no one else wants that you can find and have adjusted for a reasonable price.  I can say that I built my wife a set using my old Cobra ForgedTec heads and those exact Recoil ESX 460 F3 shafts, and the total cost w/ ferrules, epoxy, shafts, and new Winn DriTac 2.0 Grips was under $200 (all in).  I think I found the shafts on eBay, the grips on another forum, and the epoxy on Amazon on sale, but was able to scrounge for deals for all of it.  Kind of like the practice range, saving money on golf gear takes some work, but is worth it.

[Bang60]

5 hours ago, ctg44 said:

I have found the SM9s to be the absolute best wedges I've ever used.  My son has, and I had, a set of SM8 wedges...and the SM9s just blow the SM8s away.  There's a reason almost all of the pros tossed the SM8s the second the SM9s came out.  Once I added the right shafts for me, I've become a short game master lately and my scores are dropping like rocks....well, that and finally realizing that my stupid habit of using the 60* wedge around the green was killing me.  I played 9 today and had 4 putts under 2' because of some great recovery pitches / chips.  My approach game was garbage, but I still shot a 39 on a tough par 35 course because I kept saving par from crazy lies.  Not sure why I couldn't hit a green, other than I really need to swap my Mizuno 223 PW, the only club of the set I don't like, for a Vokey 46 bent to 45, but at least I kept from making a bunch of bogeys w/ the wedge game.  Practice time is the key here though.  I start and end every range session doing the exact same thing....10-15 yard greenside chip simulations.  When I can drop and stop range balls, I know I'm going to be fine w/ the like-new ProV1s I find in the water from all the other guys who don't spend enough time practicing and take so long to play that I have plenty of time to find free $5 balls!  

 

Nah, just wait a couple of weeks and someone will have gotten tired of being a hacker and be ready to dump theirs on eBay for try #765 at finding the right club because they are too stubborn to go get properly fitted or don't want to wait to get the right clubs and bought the 923s off the shelf.  As long as you're willing to do some work and maybe swap shafts and grips, there are deals to be had on even the newest clubs.  I found my son a set of Apex TCBs that looked like the guy had them a week at most with basically 1 round of use on the grips.  These clubs are almost impossible to find right now in new condition or even close to it w/o crazy markup at places like Fairway Jockey...and even then there's a 4-6 week wait most of the time.  With my FedEx account, we got them here in 3 days of another forum by being diligent and negotiating hard.  It probably helped that the shafts were crazy heavy and stiff and only a 6'3" /200 lb., 18-year-old hockey player would find them to be just perfect (Nippon Modus Pro 130X), but even still, he loves them and is firing darts with them.  In short, if you really want the Mizunos (I for sure love my Pro 223s!), then get searching and be willing to tinker.  You never know what shaft / loft / lie combo someone might have for sale that no one else wants that you can find and have adjusted for a reasonable price.  I can say that I built my wife a set using my old Cobra ForgedTec heads and those exact Recoil ESX 460 F3 shafts, and the total cost w/ ferrules, epoxy, shafts, and new Winn DriTac 2.0 Grips $200 (all in).  I think I found the shafts on eBay, the grips on another forum, and the epoxy on Amazon on sale, but was able to scrounge for deals for all of it.  Kind of like the practice range, saving money on golf gear takes some work, but is worth it.

Agreed and you've described how I aquire my golf clubs, I'm checking ebay etc daily for new-ish clubs that are inexpensive .