Not Chasing Scratch...Just Chasing a Semi Decent Reliable Game...How Do I Get There

[Golfspy_CG2]

On 7/12/2023 at 1:43 PM, Matty 3-Putts said:

I'm thinking a little less technical since it seems like most other responses here have a much better grasp on stat improvement than I'd be able to provide, but I play with several friends at similar skill levels and here's some things I've picked up that can help.

1. Be honest to yourself about your game where it is today. While it's easy to reminisce about the thoughts of hitting the ball further, that's just not realistic for some. If you just don't have the long game, that's okay, but you need to reinforce other parts of your game to play around that. And yes, like others said, if you can't hit it long, you need a heck of a short game to make up for it. A lot of your practice needs to be focused on this area.
2. Going back to being honest about your game, short hitters often take too little club into the green. Know your real on-course yardages, and don't feel like you're hurting your pride by taking a wood or hybrid in from what you think should be an iron. Your club makeup may also be contributing. I can't imagine you have a large gapping between all your clubs and I'm seeing you have 5 clubs of PW-down. Simplify your club selection and you'll have less nuance to master with that overlapping of yardages. Also, I see little value in laying up to a specific yardage if you can't reach the GIR. Get that ball as close to the hole as possible as early as possible. Dispersion goes down with shorter distance no matter what, even if your short game isn't great.
3. Solid ball contact is always key, regardless of what club you're hitting. Need to eliminate wasted shots like chunks, blades, tops. Even if you dont hit a great shot, advancing the ball towards the hole as far as possible on every swing will keep the big numbers down. (speaking to my buddy who often has to play 3x3 wood shots from the middle of a fairway...)
4. Big numbers for me come when I follow up bad shots with another bad shot. I can always make bogey with 1 bad shot on a hole, but 2 in a row puts you into double/triple territory. If you're out of position, get the ball back to a playable position and keep it there. The amount of birdies you make doesn't lower your score nearly as much as turning triples into doubles and doubles into bogeys.
5. Learn how to miss. Pick a target line on each swing knowing where the danger is that can bring up big numbers. Playing in the rough isn't great, but it is always better than a bunker or hazard. If I'm struggling off the tee, I may pick the edge of fairway as my target line opposite of the trouble so that if my big miss comes I'm still out of trouble, but a double-cross is playable.
6. Find yourself a "safety shot" off the tee. Even if you're losing 15-20 yards to get it, playing short out of the fairway is always better than a lost ball. 

There's a lot there that I'm sure you can't fix overnight, but even if you successfully employ each of these items just once a round you can be down close to your target score.

 

Thanks.  Lots of good stuff there.  Several things I already do, and several that I could definitely benefit by implementing.  

One that stuck out is one that I discussed with a very good player/friend of mine.   That is the get back in position after a bad shot.  Not that I try any real hero shots if I'm in ttrouble, but perhaps times I try for a bit more than I should and don't get into a clearly safe area and back on track, one shot later instead of 2 or 3. 

 

 

[Golfspy_CG2]

So really interesting round that shows the true life and identify of a mid to high handicap.  

So I had 11 holes of par or bogey, that resulted in 7 over par.   The other 11  holes were double to quad, resulting in 17 over par.  That math should not add up.   So what could have been an 83 to 84, turns into a 96.

I need to do a better job of reducing those 11 holes to 2 or 3 then eliminating them, so I will be closer to playing solid respectable golf as the title of the thread says

I plan to do that by taking some of the great advice in this thread and implementing it.  Along with obtaining a solid lesson/practice plan.   

 

[BobBC78]

54 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

So really interesting round that shows the true life and identify of a mid to high handicap.  

So I had 11 holes of par or bogey, that resulted in 7 over par.   The other 11  holes were double to quad, resulting in 17 over par.  That math should not add up.   So what could have been an 83 to 84, turns into a 96.

I need to do a better job of reducing those 11 holes to 2 or 3 then eliminating them, so I will be closer to playing solid respectable golf as the title of the thread says 

I plan to do that by taking some of the great advice in this thread and implementing it.  Along with obtaining a solid lesson/practice plan.   

 

 

 

I hear you. I played 9 this morning on a short but really tight course (2,600 yards with a slope of 123). Hit into penalties on two drives, was mediocre on five others and did well on the Par 3s (par, bogey) and ended up with a 15 over 50. Golf is like that at times. I got into a rut of hitting left which I didn't get out of except for the last drive of the day which went right, LOL. 

Despite my poor round, however, I hit some solid shots so (got up and down on one Par 3 and hit my best bunker shot in months on the other....something to build from!

[Golfspy_CG2]

29 minutes ago, BobBC78 said:

 

I hear you. I played 9 this morning on a short but really tight course (2,600 yards with a slope of 123). Hit into penalties on two drives, was mediocre on five others and did well on the Par 3s (par, bogey) and ended up with a 15 over 50. Golf is like that at times. I got into a rut of hitting left which I didn't get out of except for the last drive of the day which went right, LOL. 

Despite my poor round, however, I hit some solid shots so (got up and down on one Par 3 and hit my best bunker shot in months on the other....something to build from!

Yeah, that was the same for me as for how I felt about the round.  I hit enough solid shots including pars on the two toughest par 5's that I wasn't demoralized by the round, just felt a bit wanting.  I was 10/14 on fairways and 2 of the 4 were missed on our 15th and 17th holes of the day, and were both penalty shots as part of that 11 hole batch. 

[KC Golf]

On 7/12/2023 at 9:11 AM, ccostel18 said:

Stop looking at the pin. Aim for the centers of greens and make your 2 putts. Misses will tend to keep the putter in your hand rather than short sided chips, or days on the beach. 

I agree with this.  But they say you should still aim for a specific spot.  So hitting to a specific line on the approach shot is supposedly better.  During my better rounds, I seem to be thinking about a specific line and a specific type of shot to get to that line or spot on the green.  Many coaches say this is the way you should approach hitting every shot.

[Javs]

6 minutes ago, KC Golf said:

I agree with this.  But they say you should still aim for a specific spot.  So hitting to a specific line on the approach shot is supposedly better.  During my better rounds, I seem to be thinking about a specific line and a specific type of shot to get to that line or spot on the green.  Many coaches say this is the way you should approach hitting every shot.

I agree with how you are approaching it. Like you stated looking at the middle of the green is not necessarily the best option. Unless you are on dead flat greens. Unfortunately, greens that have slope or tiers often dictate shots to a sector. I like to break each green into four sectors. Sometimes even six. Front right and left, middle right and left and back right and left. Then I pick where I want to end up and where the best miss would be. The equation is based on risk of shot and safety. This is coupled with where is the best place to putt. Then I hit a club and shot that is targeted at the best sector. Determined by a green light to either take the aggressive sector or hit to a safety first sector. A long explanation, but hope it made sense. 

[Golfspy_CG2]

@Javs comment above brings up something I have made more of a focus on the last two rounds and I’m curious to the answer of this question from everyone. 
 

Let’s take the 3 typical pin locations.  Front, Back and Middle and for this purpose assume it’s in the middle section of each meaning.  No tucked left or right. 
 

what % of the time do you shoot right st the flag in each spot 

For me I’d say it’s close to these 

Front I’ll shoot right at it maybe 80% of the time. The other 20 I’m going a bit long if there is trouble right in front. 
 

Middle probably 90% of the time.  The other 10% when greens are rock hard or there is a severe down slop behind the green and I don’t want to go look 

Back- Less than 20% of the time.  Long on my course is usually dead or penalty area and I don’t like short sided shots from  deep rough.   So I go to the middle here about 80% of the time. 

[Caddie1966]

On 7/8/2023 at 10:27 PM, Shlax said:

From what I gathered from my own struggles as my swing parameters are very very similar to yours in terms of path, I would suggest focusing on shallowing the club.

I know I know. This seemingly all powerful keyword is all the rage among us amateurs trying to get rid of the slice, trying to hit the elusive tight draw or gaining distance but it truly is one of the key aspect that pros do better than us in terms of ball striking. Getting the face sorted is usually very easy in comparison to getting the path fixed, whether it is via grip changes, wrist set/hinge or release.

I’ve been working on hitting draws for the last year with varying success and I can say that while the left side of the hole is still a mostly estranged destination, my misses right have at least largely reduced. Reducing your overall dispersion comes with reducing the variability in outside-in path: 2° is pretty usual on Tour while 11-12° is near unplayable. If by trying to shallow your club path you end up with an O-I club path between 1 and 3° instead of 2 to 12°, this is already a massive gain. If you ever find the key to hitting consistently from the inside (which I haven’t yet), not only you’ll fix your dispersion issue but you’ll also take care of some of the distance insatisfactions that you have experienced due to increased efficiency and more optimal flight conditions.

P.S. If you ever find the key to hitting draws on demand, please let me know .

Hi Shlax,

Don’t know if your driver is adjustable or not but if it is, set it up for a draw.  Mine is a Titleist 917D2.  It has two things I can adjust for ball flight; a moveable weight and an adjustable hosel.  
I have a tendency to draw too much so I move the weight out to the toe which keeps it from closing too fast (sometimes). Also, if your driver has an adjustable hosel you can set the hosel to promote a draw also.  My hosel setting is also set to reduce a draw, but I can still do it every time if I want to based on swing path.  
That said, when I want to hit a draw, I tee it high, play it back about a ball in my stance, drop my trail foot a bit back and swing the face to second base which promotes the in to out swing patch you want for a draw.  Hope this helps.

[Javs]

25 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

@Javs comment above brings up something I have made more of a focus on the last two rounds and I’m curious to the answer of this question from everyone. 
 

Let’s take the 3 typical pin locations.  Front, Back and Middle and for this purpose assume it’s in the middle section of each meaning.  No tucked left or right. 
 

what % of the time do you shoot right st the flag in each spot 

For me I’d say it’s close to these 

Front I’ll shoot right at it maybe 80% of the time. The other 20 I’m going a bit long if there is trouble right in front. 
 

Middle probably 90% of the time.  The other 10% when greens are rock hard or there is a severe down slop behind the green and I don’t want to go look 

Back- Less than 20% of the time.  Long on my course is usually dead or penalty area and I don’t like short sided shots from  deep rough.   So I go to the middle here about 80% of the time. 

This is a very stimulating discussion. However, I think we need more data to fully assess how to attack the shot. Green slope, where is the trouble and what is that trouble. However, as best I can:

Front no trouble and no severe slope I am hitting right at it. Trouble and I will play past the pin and slightly away from the trouble. 
Middle center pin with no severe green slope is a green light pin. Even on a firm green fly it to the front and let it run. 
Back center if trouble is long I would play to the middle with something like a knock down that could get to the back, but not over. No trouble behind on a center back pin is a green light on a soft green. On a firm green then hit to the middle and let it run back. Interested to hear others take on the topic! This discussion will be interesting. A lot will show how each of us approach shots and our confidence level. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Javs

[ccostel18]

6 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

@Javs comment above brings up something I have made more of a focus on the last two rounds and I’m curious to the answer of this question from everyone. 
 

Let’s take the 3 typical pin locations.  Front, Back and Middle and for this purpose assume it’s in the middle section of each meaning.  No tucked left or right. 
 

what % of the time do you shoot right st the flag in each spot 

For me I’d say it’s close to these 

Front I’ll shoot right at it maybe 80% of the time. The other 20 I’m going a bit long if there is trouble right in front. 
 

Middle probably 90% of the time.  The other 10% when greens are rock hard or there is a severe down slop behind the green and I don’t want to go look 

Back- Less than 20% of the time.  Long on my course is usually dead or penalty area and I don’t like short sided shots from  deep rough.   So I go to the middle here about 80% of the time. 

First off, let me know what course these mystical middle pin placements are at and I will be beating down the clubhouse door for membership . 
 

For me personally in this scenario:

Front pin 0%. As with most amateurs I tend to come up short on a lot of shots. I am playing past any front pin. 

Middle pin I am attacking as most times I am going to come up a bit short so no real worries of hamstringing myself by ending up above the hole on front sloping greens.

Back pin depends on danger like you mentioned. But for the most part I am aiming short. 
 

All this being said I am confident in my ability to 2 putt from anywhere on the surface more so than my abilities to play a short sided shot or play out of the sand (bunkers around these parts suuuuck!)  So I concentrate on just getting my approach shots ON the surface more than WHERE on the surface if that makes sense??

[cnosil]

3 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

@Javs comment above brings up something I have made more of a focus on the last two rounds and I’m curious to the answer of this question from everyone. 
 

Let’s take the 3 typical pin locations.  Front, Back and Middle and for this purpose assume it’s in the middle section of each meaning.  No tucked left or right. 
 

what % of the time do you shoot right st the flag in each spot 

For me I’d say it’s close to these 

Front I’ll shoot right at it maybe 80% of the time. The other 20 I’m going a bit long if there is trouble right in front. 
 

Middle probably 90% of the time.  The other 10% when greens are rock hard or there is a severe down slop behind the green and I don’t want to go look 

Back- Less than 20% of the time.  Long on my course is usually dead or penalty area and I don’t like short sided shots from  deep rough.   So I go to the middle here about 80% of the time. 

 

I generally follow DECADE principles.   Targeting is based on distance, trouble and pin location.  Is a little challenging since I don't have pin locations but I try.   Have to be pretty close to target a pin near the edges.  Generally targeting is just thirds of the green.  Front or back pin will get a little bit of padding toward the middle. 

 

[Shapotomous]

26 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

@Javs comment above brings up something I have made more of a focus on the last two rounds and I’m curious to the answer of this question from everyone. 
 

Let’s take the 3 typical pin locations.  Front, Back and Middle and for this purpose assume it’s in the middle section of each meaning.  No tucked left or right. 
 

what % of the time do you shoot right st the flag in each spot 

For me I’d say it’s close to these 

Front I’ll shoot right at it maybe 80% of the time. The other 20 I’m going a bit long if there is trouble right in front. 
 

Middle probably 90% of the time.  The other 10% when greens are rock hard or there is a severe down slop behind the green and I don’t want to go look 

Back- Less than 20% of the time.  Long on my course is usually dead or penalty area and I don’t like short sided shots from  deep rough.   So I go to the middle here about 80% of the time. 

What club into the green?  Wirh wedges i am aiming directly at the pin and trying to err 3 - 5 yards on the "safe" side - which is short, long, left or right of the pin depending on green slope or hazards.  9 & 8 irons are up to 5 - 8 yards to the safe side.  7 & 6 irons up to 10 yards to the safe side, hybrids and fairway woods are center of the green only.

[Javs]

3 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

What club into the green?  Wirh wedges i am aiming directly at the pin and trying to err 3 - 5 yards on the "safe" side - which is short, long, left or right of the pin depending on green slope or hazards.  9 & 8 irons are up to 5 - 8 yards to the safe side.  7 & 6 irons up to 10 yards to the safe side, hybrids and fairway woods are center of the green only.

That is another great point. Distance and club dictates risk reward and skill. Some might feel great hitting a 180 yard shot into a small target if it is a 7 or 8 iron. However, if it is a 6 iron or higher the safety first factor comes into factor. 

[Kenny B]

6 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Thanks.  Lots of good stuff there.  Several things I already do, and several that I could definitely benefit by implementing.  

One that stuck out is one that I discussed with a very good player/friend of mine.   That is the get back in position after a bad shot.  Not that I try any real hero shots if I'm in ttrouble, but perhaps times I try for a bit more than I should and don't get into a clearly safe area and back on track, one shot later instead of 2 or 3. 

You have to practice shots to get better at them; how else are you going to improve hero shots if you don’t hit them?  

Seriously though, I have gotten better at hitting punch shots between trees, mostly because on one of our par 5’s, I can get stuck behind them occasionally.  I know how far between tree trunks is a reasonable risk and if I’m close enough, I can hit the ball straight enough to get through.  I’ve done the option of punching out sideways, but with my lack of distance I know I’m going to make double or worse anyway.

On the Front Middle Back pins question… I rarely know the distance to the pin unless my wife is there to laser it (it’s nice info, but I rely on gps front, middle back numbers; good enough for me.  I want to know what club will get me to the front and what club will put me off the back.  

There are other factors when deciding which club to pull.  My main consideration is whether I’m coming in with a short iron/wedge, longer iron, or FW; I struggle with irons longer than 8i but decent with short irons and FW.  If there is no trouble in front and the pin is in the front, I will chose the club for the front number unless the green is elevated.  Bunkers don’t bother me anymore.  Our turf is firm and even if the ball lands a little short of the green, It usually rolls on; doesn’t work on some greens so I take one more club.  I never chose a club for a back pin; middle of the green is just fine.  FYI, some of our greens are 40 yards deep, but my ball releases quite a bit even with PW.  Some greens are also quite narrow, and drop off significantly into rough, so even hitting the middle of the green can be challenging.

[GolfSpy_BEN]

55 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Let’s take the 3 typical pin locations.  Front, Back and Middle and for this purpose assume it’s in the middle section of each meaning.  No tucked left or right. 

When my handicap was bit higher than it is now and just starting to get serious, I got paired up randomly with another single one afternoon. He was scratch or pretty darn close. After the first couple holes, I noticed that when I was shooting the pin, he never asked for the yardage, but he hit every green. So I casually asked him what the secret was. I'm paraphrasing, but his response was along the lines of " I never get myself in trouble aiming for the center of the green, I know that I can lag it close to the hole more often than not, so I aim for the center." I know this standard stuff and he wasn't the first one I had heard that from, but in the moment, it felt like a revelation. So I adopted his approach and made myself a decent lag putter. Over time, in part that approach has allowed me to get down to single digits. So, it's simple, but it works.

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

I use Jon Sherman’s strategy of aiming for the back middle of the green. Us high handicappers struggle just hitting the green. If it’s a front pin, I’ll aim middle center. And if I am within 50 yards I’ll be a little more strategic 

[Golfspy_CG2]

8 hours ago, Javs said:

This is a very stimulating discussion. However, I think we need more data to fully assess how to attack the shot. Green slope, where is the trouble and what is that trouble. However, as best I can:

Front no trouble and no severe slope I am hitting right at it. Trouble and I will play past the pin and slightly away from the trouble. 
Middle center pin with no severe green slope is a green light pin. Even on a firm green fly it to the front and let it run. 
Back center if trouble is long I would play to the middle with something like a knock down that could get to the back, but not over. No trouble behind on a center back pin is a green light on a soft green. On a firm green then hit to the middle and let it run back. Interested to hear others take on the topic! This discussion will be interesting. A lot will show how each of us approach shots and our confidence level. 

Yeah. Good point trouble will dictate the approach—pun intended—that you might take.  For this scenario I was thinking just a nice inviting green no trouble in sight

8 hours ago, ccostel18 said:

First off, let me know what course these mystical middle pin placements are at and I will be beating down the clubhouse door for membership . 
 

For me personally in this scenario:

Front pin 0%. As with most amateurs I tend to come up short on a lot of shots. I am playing past any front pin. 

Middle pin I am attacking as most times I am going to come up a bit short so no real worries of hamstringing myself by ending up above the hole on front sloping greens.

Back pin depends on danger like you mentioned. But for the most part I am aiming short. 
 

All this being said I am confident in my ability to 2 putt from anywhere on the surface more so than my abilities to play a short sided shot or play out of the sand (bunkers around these parts suuuuck!)  So I concentrate on just getting my approach shots ON the surface more than WHERE on the surface if that makes sense??

Funny during our scramble start this week I was riding out to our starting hole with the Superintendent and we passed a hole where the flag was right smack in the center of the green.   I said to him.   That’s about as middle as middle can be.   Did you screw up on that one or something.   He laughed and said we have to throw you a bone now and then

8 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

What club into the green?  Wirh wedges i am aiming directly at the pin and trying to err 3 - 5 yards on the "safe" side - which is short, long, left or right of the pin depending on green slope or hazards.  9 & 8 irons are up to 5 - 8 yards to the safe side.  7 & 6 irons up to 10 yards to the safe side, hybrids and fairway woods are center of the green only.

Yeah great point that would make a difference.   I would say my % for going at then would be higher with a P of 9 and obviously not as high with a 5 or 6—I’m just hoping to hit the green anywhere with those.    

[Shlax]

10 hours ago, Caddie1966 said:

Hi Shlax,

Don’t know if your driver is adjustable or not but if it is, set it up for a draw.  Mine is a Titleist 917D2.  It has two things I can adjust for ball flight; a moveable weight and an adjustable hosel.  
I have a tendency to draw too much so I move the weight out to the toe which keeps it from closing too fast (sometimes). Also, if your driver has an adjustable hosel you can set the hosel to promote a draw also.  My hosel setting is also set to reduce a draw, but I can still do it every time if I want to based on swing path.  
That said, when I want to hit a draw, I tee it high, play it back about a ball in my stance, drop my trail foot a bit back and swing the face to second base which promotes the in to out swing patch you want for a draw.  Hope this helps.

@Caddie1966, I appreciate the advice but you should know that while the draw setting on recent drivers does help start the ball left as it impacts lie and face angle, it barely does anything to shape draws when the issue is club path related, which is my case and also OP (@Golfspy_CG2)’s case.

Club path is known as one of the most difficult aspect of the swing to change. Typically, amateurs-weekend golfers having a naturally excessive inside-out swing may struggle to hit fades and thise having an over-the-top swing have trouble hitting from the inside and hitting draws. It takes a lot of work to change one of the most important part of the swing. I am now at a point where I’ll simply dish out the money and take multiple lessons with a private instructor. I did do a swing evaluation at Golf Tec in the past and it was a real epiphany but I came back to square one a few weeks after.

While dropping the trail foot by some margin can provide a temporary counter measure on off days, I wouldn’t suggest building a swing around this trick. The swing path can effectively end up inside-out of the final target, but the swing Itself can still be outside-in of the aim line as the alignment is shifted to the right. It basically entices a player to play pull-draws or pull-hooks with complete reliance on face control at impact and doesn’t do anything to help correct the core issue.

I could share some shallowing drills that have been effective for me (at least temporarily as I now struggle hitting draws once again). They’re mostly what’s taught by golf instructors and available on YouTube.

[Caddie1966]

40 minutes ago, Shlax said:

@Caddie1966, I appreciate the advice but you should know that while the draw setting on recent drivers does help start the ball left as it impacts lie and face angle, it barely does anything to shape draws when the issue is club path related, which is my case and also OP (@Golfspy_CG2)’s case.

Club path is known as one of the most difficult aspect of the swing to change. Typically, amateurs-weekend golfers having a naturally excessive inside-out swing may struggle to hit fades and thise having an over-the-top swing have trouble hitting from the inside and hitting draws. It takes a lot of work to change one of the most important part of the swing. I am now at a point where I’ll simply dish out the money and take multiple lessons with a private instructor. I did do a swing evaluation at Golf Tec in the past and it was a real epiphany but I came back to square one a few weeks after.

While dropping the trail foot by some margin can provide a temporary counter measure on off days, I wouldn’t suggest building a swing around this trick. The swing path can effectively end up inside-out of the final target, but the swing Itself can still be outside-in of the aim line as the alignment is shifted to the right. It basically entices a player to play pull-draws or pull-hooks with complete reliance on face control at impact and doesn’t do anything to help correct the core issue.

I could share some shallowing drills that have been effective for me (at least temporarily as I now struggle hitting draws once again). They’re mostly what’s taught by golf instructors and available on YouTube.

Thanks

[ccostel18]

9 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

I use Jon Sherman’s strategy of aiming for the back middle of the green. Us high handicappers struggle just hitting the green. If it’s a front pin, I’ll aim middle center. And if I am within 50 yards I’ll be a little more strategic 

His book has become my bible. Playing buddy of mine gave it to me all highlighted and footnoted. Felt like I was back in school. 

[BobBC78]

10 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

I use Jon Sherman’s strategy of aiming for the back middle of the green. Us high handicappers struggle just hitting the green. If it’s a front pin, I’ll aim middle center. And if I am within 50 yards I’ll be a little more strategic 

Sherman's book is great! I read it late last year and am trying to follow Jon's advice. Among other things, in 2023 I started aiming more towards the back middle of most greens which has resulted in GIR of 30% thus far for 2023 (versus 25% for 2022) and reduced short shots to 39% (versus 58% in 2022).  "The Four Foundations of Golf" is a terrific resource for information about how to play the game. 

[Golfspy_CG2]

1 hour ago, Shlax said:

@Caddie1966, I appreciate the advice but you should know that while the draw setting on recent drivers does help start the ball left as it impacts lie and face angle, it barely does anything to shape draws when the issue is club path related, which is my case and also OP (@Golfspy_CG2)’s case.

Club path is known as one of the most difficult aspect of the swing to change. Typically, amateurs-weekend golfers having a naturally excessive inside-out swing may struggle to hit fades and thise having an over-the-top swing have trouble hitting from the inside and hitting draws. It takes a lot of work to change one of the most important part of the swing. I am now at a point where I’ll simply dish out the money and take multiple lessons with a private instructor. I did do a swing evaluation at Golf Tec in the past and it was a real epiphany but I came back to square one a few weeks after.

While dropping the trail foot by some margin can provide a temporary counter measure on off days, I wouldn’t suggest building a swing around this trick. The swing path can effectively end up inside-out of the final target, but the swing Itself can still be outside-in of the aim line as the alignment is shifted to the right. It basically entices a player to play pull-draws or pull-hooks with complete reliance on face control at impact and doesn’t do anything to help correct the core issue.

I could share some shallowing drills that have been effective for me (at least temporarily as I now struggle hitting draws once again). They’re mostly what’s taught by golf instructors and available on YouTube.

I'll echo what you said about path being the hardest part of the swing for most weekend/casual players to change.  In the lessons I took online from Giles Gil (who is awesome by the way and I highly recommend him) this winter, after we worked out a few posture and address issues and began to address the path, he said and I'll paraphrase.  This will by far be the hardest part of any changes we're going to try to make, but it will be a massive payoff when you get there.

I haven't quite made it yet, but am still working on it, and it's something i monitor with each practice session I so on the range when I have my R10 out. 

 

[Shlax]

5 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I'll echo what you said about path being the hardest part of the swing for most weekend/casual players to change.  In the lessons I took online from Giles Gil (who is awesome by the way and I highly recommend him) this winter, after we worked out a few posture and address issues and began to address the path, he said and I'll paraphrase.  This will by far be the hardest part of any changes we're going to try to make, but it will be a massive payoff when you get there.

I haven't quite made it yet, but am still working on it, and it's something i monitor with each practice session I so on the range when I have my R10 out. 

 

Out of curiosity, have you noticed where in your swing things start to awry? This is useful to really put emphasis on the core issue.

For example, with 1/4 or even 1/2 swings I noticed that I can really sling my shots right to left but as soon as I try with a full swing, I get outside-in once again. This indicates an issue in my transition (mainly shoulder rotation from the get go before dropping the hands, etc.).

[GolfSpy_KFT]

19 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I'll echo what you said about path being the hardest part of the swing for most weekend/casual players to change.  In the lessons I took online from Giles Gil (who is awesome by the way and I highly recommend him) this winter, after we worked out a few posture and address issues and began to address the path, he said and I'll paraphrase.  This will by far be the hardest part of any changes we're going to try to make, but it will be a massive payoff when you get there.

I haven't quite made it yet, but am still working on it, and it's something i monitor with each practice session I so on the range when I have my R10 out. 

 

I, too, struggle big time with club path and face to path. I had borrowed a friend's R10 for the first few weeks after I got my cobra clubs and path was very much to the right (I'm a lefty) and face to path very much to the left. I've always struggled with a slice miss and am planning on doing one or two more lessons this summer with the club pro to see if he can help me get more on target. I know that I come over the top a bit, and I know that I early extend. The early extension has been really hard for me to change as well, as I'll start to rotate but then stop and "jump" out of posture basically. I would like to invest in something like the R10 or the new Rapsodo MLM2 Pro (not sure it shows club path data, though) for the offseason so that I can try to make the significant changes then vs. during the season and feeling off every time I play. Just have to figure out how to talk SWMBO into it 

[cnosil]

1 minute ago, Jnoble89 said:

I, too, struggle big time with club path and face to path. I had borrowed a friend's R10 for the first few weeks after I got my cobra clubs and path was very much to the right (I'm a lefty) and face to path very much to the left. I've always struggled with a slice miss and am planning on doing one or two more lessons this summer with the club pro to see if he can help me get more on target. I know that I come over the top a bit, and I know that I early extend. The early extension has been really hard for me to change as well, as I'll start to rotate but then stop and "jump" out of posture basically. I would like to invest in something like the R10 or the new Rapsodo MLM2 Pro (not sure it shows club path data, though) for the offseason so that I can try to make the significant changes then vs. during the season and feeling off every time I play. Just have to figure out how to talk SWMBO into it 

If you want to stop coming from over the top, you don’t need a LM, put one of the boxes from your Cobra clubs outside the line and avoid hitting it.   Just like with a LM it won’t solve the underlying cause but will give you the feedback you are looking for.   
that “jump out of posture” is to enable you. To hit the ball.  The problem that needs to be fixed happens before that event.  looking at my swing  it was backswing length leading to hips getting in front of the arms casing the hips to stop and  caused the club to steepen to not miss the ball which caused me to raise up to avoid the fat shot.  I’ve been working on backswing and connection which has improved all of those things.   

[cksurfdude]

13 hours ago, ccostel18 said:

Front pin 0%. As with most amateurs I tend to come up short on a lot of shots. I am playing past any front pin. 

Observing myself and seeing ShotScope and Lou Stagner data, that's correct.

Unless the green is so severely sloped it'll be a crazy downhill putt .. or the area fronting the green is so flat and tight it's like the green .. then for your next shot ... would you rather putt on the green to the pin, or would you rather chip or pitch or bump & run towards it..?

 

13 hours ago, ccostel18 said:

All this being said I am confident in my ability to 2 putt from anywhere on the surface more so than my abilities to play a short sided shot or play out of the sand (bunkers around these parts suuuuck!)  So I concentrate on just getting my approach shots ON the surface more than WHERE on the surface if that makes sense??

From my hi hcp perspective I absolutely agree! I typically aim center, or call it "fat part", of the green - unless I'm pretty close in and there's a lot of slope or tiers to contend with. Been working on the lag putting a LOT!!

[Subdiver1]

On 7/7/2023 at 2:02 PM, KC Golf said:

Interestingly if I hold my putter with tension, my aim shifts slightly left (never noticed this), but with no tension it was dead on

Great post and advice overall.  Let me focus in this first though, IMO this is great advice and I noticed the same thing a few years back when I "started having issues" with putting.  When I look at my stats from when I started using Swing U (back when it was Swing by Swing)  the data shows 1.8 putts per hole over 450+ recorded rounds; that is 32.4 putts per round on average YIKES!!!!!  I struggled with feel and distance control and got focused on the cup and was getting frustrated as I watched the number of 3-putts increase (especially when it was due to missing putts inside 3-feet!).  After messing with stance, putters, grip, shifting my weight forward, and everything else you can imagine, I was out playing one day and started rolling putts that not only felt good, they were falling or lags were within that magic 1 foot radius; what happened?  At one point I realized that I had relaxed my hands and everything not only felt "right" but I had control.  Now when I start feeling off or the ball isn't rolling well I try to focus on relaxing my hands and arms; kind of amazing how everything flows, whether it be a putter swing to a full swing, when you relax your body LOL!  So, for what it is worth, I think this is great advice for the game overall.

As for the rest, I again agree.  The other thing that helped me drop into the single digit handicap realm some years back was spending time in the practice area hitting shots from 80 yards in to the target green and pins.  Getting that feel and groove down translated into my full swing as well, in a BIG way.  For all of our guys up here that are having issues or ask How, I offer that spending an hour or two a week hitting shots and dialing in that 30, 40, 50, 60, 80 yard swing is a great place to start.

I believe those are THE two key things that I helped my game drop into the singe digit handicap realm, and when I start to see it come up, that is where I go to nail it back in when I start to struggle.  Great advice across the board in my experience.

Cheers,

Scott

[Golfspy_CG2]

54 minutes ago, Shlax said:

Out of curiosity, have you noticed where in your swing things start to awry? This is useful to really put emphasis on the core issue.

For example, with 1/4 or even 1/2 swings I noticed that I can really sling my shots right to left but as soon as I try with a full swing, I get outside-in once again. This indicates an issue in my transition (mainly shoulder rotation from the get go before dropping the hands, etc.).

Yeah, it's definitely the transition to the downswing, which I know is not uncommon.   I don't have a long back swing at all, on most iron shots think, 10:00 to 10:30 a clock.  At times, I will intentionally shorten it up to maybe 9:00 or 9:15'ish and find that I make such solid contact, I don't' really lose any distance at all and get a much crisper sound and stronger ball flight.   That works so well, I of course go back to 11:0 or so and think I can hit it even farther. OH DOH 

 

49 minutes ago, darronstam412 said:

I've been listening to Chasing Scratch for hours and it's been quite the journey. As a not-so-great golfer, my handicap has fluctuated between 15 and 23 over the years. Recently, it hit a sobering 20.4 after a round with a 95 score. I've had some good shots, but my putting and a few disastrous holes have been Hours holding me back. Any advice or shared experiences would be greatly appreciated. It's frustrating, especially when I see our MODs shooting in the 70s.

Yeah, I'm on Season 3 now, but have been warned by a reliable source, they kind of go off the rails during this season and is not as much fun to listen to.   On Episode 2 now and I think I can see it coming

I wish I had some advice that would be guaranteed to work.  If you havent already, read the entire thread, there is A LOT of great info and suggestions from several people.  

Oh and think I feel  being i the  same slack chat with @GolfSpy TCB  @GolfSpy BOS  @GolfSpy SAM  @GolfSpy_BNG @GolfSpy_APH and hearing about their rounds in the 70's.    I'm just here to help the BellCurve

 

[GolfSpy_KFT]

35 minutes ago, cnosil said:

If you want to stop coming from over the top, you don’t need a LM, put one of the boxes from your Cobra clubs outside the line and avoid hitting it.   Just like with a LM it won’t solve the underlying cause but will give you the feedback you are looking for.   
that “jump out of posture” is to enable you. To hit the ball.  The problem that needs to be fixed happens before that event.  looking at my swing  it was backswing length leading to hips getting in front of the arms casing the hips to stop and  caused the club to steepen to not miss the ball which caused me to raise up to avoid the fat shot.  I’ve been working on backswing and connection which has improved all of those things.   

You're right, I absolutely don't NEED a LM, moreso I just want one to swing indoors in the winter so that I get an idea of ball flight vs. just hitting into a net. Speak to me like I am a 5 year old, but where exactly for the box placement? Definitely something that I feel like I should know  but all I can visualize in my head is outside the ball and I know I'd have no problem missing it as I miss off the toe most often with my early extension. What I've been mainly working on lately is my takeaway as I had a tendency to push my hands away from my body a bit which caused the clubhead to get inside and I was also not getting my wrists set in a good position. It's gotten better, I think, but still working at it so that it becomes the natural move at takeaway. I also know that I tend to get quick at the top with my hands and arms and then it forces my lower half to try and catch up. Basically there's plenty to work on, long story short 

[Golfspy_CG2]

48 minutes ago, Jnoble89 said:

I, too, struggle big time with club path and face to path. I had borrowed a friend's R10 for the first few weeks after I got my cobra clubs and path was very much to the right (I'm a lefty) and face to path very much to the left. I've always struggled with a slice miss and am planning on doing one or two more lessons this summer with the club pro to see if he can help me get more on target. I know that I come over the top a bit, and I know that I early extend. The early extension has been really hard for me to change as well, as I'll start to rotate but then stop and "jump" out of posture basically. I would like to invest in something like the R10 or the new Rapsodo MLM2 Pro (not sure it shows club path data, though) for the offseason so that I can try to make the significant changes then vs. during the season and feeling off every time I play. Just have to figure out how to talk SWMBO into it 

I have both the R10 and the MLM2Pro   Both good in their own right, but you are correct, the MLM2 does not show show club path or face angle.    I think the R10 is pretty accurate in that regard, as I've had it right next to Trackman a few times. 

As mentioned I have a big number in path 8 or higher at times, but I guess I off set that by getting the face relatively square (at times) at impact resulting in a fade.  But I no doubt need to reduce that path.