Me or loss of etiquette in the game?

[Bogeyfree69]

Been away doing a little travel and not much golf recently but as part of my travels stopped in to see some golf trip buddies in Knoxville, TN for a few days and went with one of my buddies to see his grandson’s high school golf match.   His grandson is a freshman and is playing as number 2 on his team.  During the match one of the opposing players would mark his ball with a tee.   I’m aware a tee can be used and the USGA definition of a ball-marker is “an artificial object such as a tee, coin, or other object made to be a ball-marker, or another small piece of equipment.    During my observation of the match the other players tee was on numerous occasions in general line when the other players would be chipping or putting.   Even if he was asked to move it would still would be bothersome.   On one occasion after the player chipped marked his ball with the tee another player didn’t hit a very good chip the ball stopped directly beside the tee,   The kid was asked to move his “tee” which he did and then stood directly behind the kid putting so to get the line of the putt.   On the last hole my buddies grandson hit a drive about 30 yards behind the same kid who used a tee to mark his ball.   The kid who used a tee stood in the middle of the fairway with his range finder as my buddies grandson who was ready to hit waited patiently since the kid was directly in front of him.   He waited for about a minute or so as the kid stood there.  Finally my friends grandson yelled up to him and after the kid turned around and saw him he shot the pin again and made him wait.  

I’ve never seen worse etiquette during a match in my life.  It took everting I had to not say anything to the kids coach.

It still annoys me.   Am I wrong?  I appreciate all opinions.      

[hckymeyer]

Sounds like the other kid is just an a**hole.  Well, either he knows what he's doing (gamesmanship) and is an a**hole, or he genuinely has no clue what he's doing is wrong in which case he's still being an a**hole but hasn't been taught better.

[Bogeyfree69]

54 minutes ago, hckymeyer said:

Sounds like the other kid is just an a**hole.  Well, either he knows what he's doing (gamesmanship) and is an a**hole, or he genuinely has no clue what he's doing is wrong in which case he's still being an a**hole but hasn't been taught better.

I couldn’t agree more.   I think he didn’t care and was being a jacka** on purpose.

[fixyurdivot]

Yes, and you could substitute society for "game" in your thread title.  I'm also inclined to believe his actions are learned behaviour.

[Shapotomous]

I helped with the local HS team for a few years and there were a handful of kids that did not know anything about golf etiquette.  We went over the basic etiquette and rules stuff with them repeatedly. They were new to the game and not playing as the #2 player though. 

I would have mentioned to their coach that his player has a good gàme but needed a lesson in etiquette.  But i am not one to keep my mouth shut.

I believe standing behind a player to get the line is a rules violation.  I would have mentioned that to the coach too.

Having been around HS golf it would not surprise me if the other coach and the player didnt know the rules.  The last year i helped, the coach was drafted into the position and had only played a few rounds himself.  

[cnosil]

9 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

 

I believe standing behind a player to get the line is a rules violation.  I would have mentioned that to the coach too.

 

Not against the rules.    It is only against the rules for the players caddie (Rule 10.2b (4))  or players partner (foursome (Rule 22.6) and fourball (Rule 23.8))

[Bogeyfree69]

7 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

I helped with the local HS team for a few years and there were a handful of kids that did not know anything about golf etiquette.  We went over the basic etiquette and rules stuff with them repeatedly. They were new to the game and not playing as the #2 player though. 

I would have mentioned to their coach that his player has a good gàme but needed a lesson in etiquette.  But i am not one to keep my mouth shut.

I believe standing behind a player to get the line is a rules violation.  I would have mentioned that to the coach too.

Having been around HS golf it would not surprise me if the other coach and the player didnt know the rules.  The last year i helped, the coach was drafted into the position and had only played a few rounds himself.  

This kid was a senior and you could tell he’s been playing for a while.  But I agree with you on etiquette needs to be taught.   I kinda felt it wasn’t my place to say something since I just was visiting but kinda regret not.   Appreciate the input.

[Hook DeLoft]

Sounds like Seve Ballesteros. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

You either let something bother you and distract you when competing and have it affect your game or you ignore and go about your business and better yet beat the other person.

As a spectator you watch and say nothing, as a parent you say nothing while whatever game is going on. Then if you feel like the other coach should be approached on how to handle their players, you say something but with that could come getting an earful back, being ignored or a number of any situations. The majority of the time it’s going to be the person speaking is wasting their breath.

at the end of the day control what you can control and ignore what you cant

[Kenny B]

On 9/9/2023 at 11:32 AM, Bogeyfree69 said:

During my observation of the match the other players tee was on numerous occasions in general line when the other players would be chipping or putting.   Even if he was asked to move it would still would be bothersome.

I've played with people that have used a tee to mark their ball.  This is just me, but I would ask them to keep moving it until it was not bothersome... even if had to be moved multiple times... AND I would make sure to note where the ball should be returned to just in case.  Maybe then they can find a coin or a less obtrusive marker.

On 9/9/2023 at 11:32 AM, Bogeyfree69 said:

The kid was asked to move his “tee” which he did and then stood directly behind the kid putting so to get the line of the putt.

I would also require the kid to move out of my backline of sight because it bothers me.

[Brooky03]

The kid was being a punk but there have always been kids acting like punks, probably for thousands of years.  This isn’t indicative of a noteworthy trend, imo.

Not every high school golfer in 1970 was being ethical and chill.

[golffun]

What you experienced seems to be the trend among young people.   Hats on backwards, shirts not tucked in...  standing on another person's line of play,  yelling while other are trying to hit a shot.   playing music loud enough to be heard a few holes away.  Watching PGA, etc. on TV and listening to the verbal comments, yelling, etc. and it's somewhat promoted by the PGA...  tells you what's to come for the future of golf.    TOP GOLF is educating the next wave of golfers that we will be dealing with on the course.  No one is trying to educate the up coming youngsters to the etiquette of the game we all have grown to love..   unfortunate.  

[Brooky03]

1 hour ago, golffun said:

What you experienced seems to be the trend among young people.   Hats on backwards, shirts not tucked in...  standing on another person's line of play,  yelling while other are trying to hit a shot.   playing music loud enough to be heard a few holes away.  Watching PGA, etc. on TV and listening to the verbal comments, yelling, etc. and it's somewhat promoted by the PGA...  tells you what's to come for the future of golf.    TOP GOLF is educating the next wave of golfers that we will be dealing with on the course.  No one is trying to educate the up coming youngsters to the etiquette of the game we all have grown to love..   unfortunate.  

fwiw, most polos these days are designed not to be tucked in and, unless it's a regional thing, backwards hats haven't been "in" for almost 20 years at this point.  Regardless, are fashion choices really an etiquette problem?  Guys don't golf in wool suits anymore.  Was it an etiquette problem when golfers switched to polos or shorts?

The other stuff, I suspect, is a matter of letting the outliers shape your opinion of the whole group.  Rude golfers aren't new.  If they're more prevalent, I'd argue it's a function of golf's popularity rebounding/growing.  To say nobody is teaching kids golf etiquette is to say that parents who learned proper golf etiquette just decided not to bother passing it down.  I'm not buying that, wholesale.

Do we want to shun new, young golfers for the sake of etiquette or do we want our local courses to stay open?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Brooky03

[russtopherb]

1 hour ago, golffun said:

What you experienced seems to be the trend among young people.   Hats on backwards, shirts not tucked in...  standing on another person's line of play,  yelling while other are trying to hit a shot.   playing music loud enough to be heard a few holes away.  Watching PGA, etc. on TV and listening to the verbal comments, yelling, etc. and it's somewhat promoted by the PGA...  tells you what's to come for the future of golf.    TOP GOLF is educating the next wave of golfers that we will be dealing with on the course.  No one is trying to educate the up coming youngsters to the etiquette of the game we all have grown to love..   unfortunate.  

In all seriousness - this whole "young people are ruining the game" thing needs to die a painful death. Every serious breach of etiquette I've ever witnessed has come from an AARP card carrying member. I'd much rather golf with someone with their shirt untucked and hat on backwards than some of the misogynistic, homophobic racists I've had the "joy" of being paired with.

I'd rather run into someone young who can be taught etiquette and how to respect the course, because they simply may not know, vs run into an older person who knows better but thinks they're special and can  say & do whatever they want regardless of how it impacts others. 

[billybogey]

Wow!!  "Benefit of doubt" does work. The "Coach" own's it. 

 

[Rosey31]

The OP was talking about a single player who seemed to be only concerned about himself. While his actions are uncalled for @russtopherb makes a great point about being able to teach a younger person proper etiquette and that starts with his coach and parents. 

[Bosox04]

Not only kids. I play with a group of retired guys, and a few of them are totally oblivious and unaware of anyone. I played with a guy last week that gave detailed explanations of every bad shot he hit. Not really sure how many shots I had to step away from during his play by play.

[BCases]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:32 PM, Bogeyfree69 said:

Been away doing a little travel and not much golf recently but as part of my travels stopped in to see some golf trip buddies in Knoxville, TN for a few days and went with one of my buddies to see his grandson’s high school golf match.   His grandson is a freshman and is playing as number 2 on his team.  During the match one of the opposing players would mark his ball with a tee.   I’m aware a tee can be used and the USGA definition of a ball-marker is “an artificial object such as a tee, coin, or other object made to be a ball-marker, or another small piece of equipment.    During my observation of the match the other players tee was on numerous occasions in general line when the other players would be chipping or putting.   Even if he was asked to move it would still would be bothersome.   On one occasion after the player chipped marked his ball with the tee another player didn’t hit a very good chip the ball stopped directly beside the tee,   The kid was asked to move his “tee” which he did and then stood directly behind the kid putting so to get the line of the putt.   On the last hole my buddies grandson hit a drive about 30 yards behind the same kid who used a tee to mark his ball.   The kid who used a tee stood in the middle of the fairway with his range finder as my buddies grandson who was ready to hit waited patiently since the kid was directly in front of him.   He waited for about a minute or so as the kid stood there.  Finally my friends grandson yelled up to him and after the kid turned around and saw him he shot the pin again and made him wait.  

I’ve never seen worse etiquette during a match in my life.  It took everting I had to not say anything to the kids coach.

It still annoys me.   Am I wrong?  I appreciate all opinions.      

The kid obviously knew what he was doing. As a player , after he shot the pin for a second time, I would have hit the ball over his head and see if he "understood". 

[russtopherb]

22 minutes ago, BCases said:

The kid obviously knew what he was doing. As a player , after he shot the pin for a second time, I would have hit the ball over his head and see if he "understood". 

Really? In real life, presented with this situation, you would have knowingly done something that could have seriously injured someone? 

[BCases]

Maybe , maybe not. I probably would have let him take a few steps to the side and then hit. He would have gotten the point.

[russtopherb]

41 minutes ago, BCases said:

Maybe , maybe not. I probably would have let him take a few steps to the side and then hit. He would have gotten the point.

[GaDawg]

In my opinion, the kid marking his ball with a tee will have tough life lessons ahead of him. He knew what he was doing.

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Toss a dime at the "golfer" and tell him it is better to not poke holes in putting surface.  I also yell "heads up" when a player is not waiting or watching for me to hit.  I scatter left and right rough too much, sorry, but I try to pay attention to my co players.  Back when caddy was a common teen job, I was taught basic golf etiquetter by the starter or caddie master.

[NoRebound]

I learned the etiquette of golf from my grandfather who taught me the game and by the country club where I caddied in high school.  The club had a mandatory class for new caddies that covered everything and if you didn't pass you got sent home for the season.  There was a "refresher" course during the season if you were reported a couple of times by members and, again, if you failed you were gone.  It was seemingly little stuff to a kid like where to stand to keep your shadow out of the line of a putt and not to lean the end of the pin into the putting surface.  But all of it made you aware that there was a proper way to play the game and you were expected to conform.

I would hope that a high school golf coach would be mindful of teaching his players etiquette if for no other reason than how it reflects on him/her and their program.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:32 PM, Bogeyfree69 said:

On one occasion after the player chipped marked his ball with the tee another player didn’t hit a very good chip the ball stopped directly beside the tee,

This isn’t the fault of the golfer using a tee for his ball marker, this is the fault of the one chipping for executing a poor shot. Also not a bid deal it ended up next to the tee because it would have ended up next to whatever marker was used. Then the ball gets marked, the golfer with the tee moves his ball back to the original spot and the match moves on.

and if a tee in the ground as a ball mark is distracting to someone they need to learn how to focus better

[JustJeffy]

And what happens if the chipped shot hits the tee and knocks it a few inches away from where it was?  It would be difficult to prove that the ball was replaced in the exact spot it was originally would it not?  Would that be a potential penalty?

[cnosil]

21 minutes ago, JustJeffy said:

And what happens if the chipped shot hits the tee and knocks it a few inches away from where it was?  It would be difficult to prove that the ball was replaced in the exact spot it was originally would it not?  Would that be a potential penalty?

Rule 13.1d. When Ball or Ball-Marker Moves on Putting Green

There are two specific Rules for a ball or ball-marker that moves on the putting green.

(1) No Penalty for Accidentally Causing Ball to Move. There is no penalty if the player, opponent or another player in stroke play accidentally moves the player’s ball or ball-markeron the putting green.

The player must:

• Replace the ball on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2), or
• Place a ball-marker to mark that original spot.

 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Rule 13.1d. When Ball or Ball-Marker Moves on Putting Green

There are two specific Rules for a ball or ball-marker that moves on the putting green.

(1) No Penalty for Accidentally Causing Ball to Move. There is no penalty if the player, opponent or another player in stroke play accidentally moves the player’s ball or ball-markeron the putting green.

The player must:

• Replace the ball on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2), or
• Place a ball-marker to mark that original spot.

 

 

Crazy how there always seems to be a rule for “what it’s”

[TylorJudd]

On 9/9/2023 at 11:32 AM, Bogeyfree69 said:

Been away doing a little travel and not much golf recently but as part of my travels stopped in to see some golf trip buddies in Knoxville, TN for a few days and went with one of my buddies to see his grandson’s high school golf match.   His grandson is a freshman and is playing as number 2 on his team.  During the match one of the opposing players would mark his ball with a tee.   I’m aware a tee can be used and the USGA definition of a ball-marker is “an artificial object such as a tee, coin, or other object made to be a ball-marker, or another small piece of equipment.    During my observation of the match the other players tee was on numerous occasions in general line when the other players would be chipping or putting.   Even if he was asked to move it would still would be bothersome.   On one occasion after the player chipped marked his ball with the tee another player didn’t hit a very good chip the ball stopped directly beside the tee,   The kid was asked to move his “tee” which he did and then stood directly behind the kid putting so to get the line of the putt.   On the last hole my buddies grandson hit a drive about 30 yards behind the same kid who used a tee to mark his ball.   The kid who used a tee stood in the middle of the fairway with his range finder as my buddies grandson who was ready to hit waited patiently since the kid was directly in front of him.   He waited for about a minute or so as the kid stood there.  Finally my friends grandson yelled up to him and after the kid turned around and saw him he shot the pin again and made him wait.  

I’ve never seen worse etiquette during a match in my life.  It took everting I had to not say anything to the kids coach.

It still annoys me.   Am I wrong?  I appreciate all opinions.      

I've only come across this as assholes. I played with a guy on our high school tour who would use his bag as a ball marker..... talk about BS. Sounds like he's trying to get inhis head

[Middler]

Drawing conclusions, as the thread title implies, based on the behavior of one other player is suspect to begin with. Etiquette has “changed” throughout American culture, and it’s not restricted to the young IME. I play with seniors where cheating is often rampant, and golf etiquette is a lost art for some. So I play with people who still appreciate golf etiquette and rules, and don’t play more than once with those who don’t. Life’s too short…