Shaft Hack - The Otto Phlex Journey

[azstu324]

22 minutes ago, Nolan220 said:

So I dont have any numbers or anything bc I put this driver together with an A flex shaft Project X LZ driver shaft hit it twice in my garage set up but didn't turn on my skytrak bc I had to run, also didn't get a chance to weigh it or anything .. got asked to play at my buddies club sunday morning .. threw my old shaft in my car just in case but was going to try out the A flex on the range ... was hitting them really well the big miss was a hook that wasn't terrible would put me in the rough so I rolled the diced and gamed it right away ... I played pretty well other then putting ( those greens give me nightmares I think its in my head but pretty sure 3 putted mostly every hole. .. but I was hitting it really well my buddy commented like damn you are driving it like a 2 handi cap ! .. so for the first run it worked out really well .. I felt like I was swinging really easy and the ball would hit a high draw .. I want to explore more and get side by side numbers bc maybe I just had a really good driving day or maybe the shaft really made the difference but I am really excited to see how this goes. 

I'm almost convinced that there's an added level of psyche, or awareness that "slowing of the swing" is really important. It's like we subconsciously feel like we shouldn't be swinging too hard with fear of completely losing control or breaking it in half. And the result is a much better tempo and quality of swing. Makes me wonder how much of the magic is the actual shaft.. and how much is what the shaft actually influences us to do in our swing..??

 

[GolfSpy TCB]

1 minute ago, azstu324 said:

I'm almost convinced that there's an added level of psyche, or awareness that "slowing of the swing" is really important. It's like we subconsciously feel like we shouldn't be swinging too hard with fear of completely losing control or breaking it in half. And the result is a much better tempo and quality of swing. Makes me wonder how much of the magic is the actual shaft.. and how much is what the shaft actually influences us to do in our swing..??

 

With the initial results of the L shaft in the driver... I am starting to believe I have been playing too stiff a shaft my whole life... Early on I was in an X, then settled into a stiff, came back to the game at 50 in a regular... and none have felt more in-sync with my swing than this current setup.  Understanding you can't compare flex marking to flex marking as each shaft has different actual flexes and profiles... and it could be psyche as you proposed @azstu324... whatever the mojo is... I'm glad I have a little of it in my bag.  

[cnosil]

Just now, azstu324 said:

I'm almost convinced that there's an added level of psyche, or awareness that "slowing of the swing" is really important. It's like we subconsciously feel like we shouldn't be swinging too hard with fear of completely losing control or breaking it in half. And the result is a much better tempo and quality of swing. Makes me wonder how much of the magic is the actual shaft.. and how much is what the shaft actually influences us to do in our swing..??

 

Interesting thought,  so then the question would be why are people seeing more distance?  Distance is created by faster swings or  better contact location.   Maybe it is the perceived better control results in better sequencing  that produces tasters speeds.   Or that people have better grip pressure?  People have also reported higher ball flight; maybe people just hit the ball too low.   
 

has anyone done a LM based test to compare numbers?  I don’t recall seeing anyone do that type of evaluation?

[GolfSpy TCB]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Interesting thought,  so then the question would be why are people seeing more distance?  Distance is created by faster swings or  better contact location.   Maybe it is the perceived better control results in better sequencing  that produces tasters speeds.   Or that people have better grip pressure?  People have also reported higher ball flight; maybe people just hit the ball too low.   
 

has anyone done a LM based test to compare numbers?  I don’t recall seeing anyone do that type of evaluation?

I did a side by side LM comparison when I picked up the PLB in my TSi3 head (vs. the Mitsubishi Tensei AV Blue 65g reg).  The numbers were better across the board with the PLB.  Club Speed, Ball Speed, Launch, Spin, Carry...  But I endeavor to do a more detailed LM test and share the data.  Good comment cnosil. 

[azstu324]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Interesting thought,  so then the question would be why are people seeing more distance?  Distance is created by faster swings or  better contact location.   Maybe it is the perceived better control results in better sequencing  that produces tasters speeds.   Or that people have better grip pressure?  People have also reported higher ball flight; maybe people just hit the ball too low.   
 

has anyone done a LM based test to compare numbers?  I don’t recall seeing anyone do that type of evaluation?

I really think it's a perfect storm here. I don't think that slowing tempo necessarily means physically slowing the club speed, but just the feeling of it slowing. Like you mentioned, and still leaning on my theory, when you're not constantly trying to muscle a swing, you tend to loosen a lot of things. Grip pressure, wrist flexibility, shoulders, arms, torso, hips, legs. Add a more consistent strike, better launch angle, and optimal spin #'s and there's your sauce. 

I did provide launch results somewhere in this mess but I also disclosed that they probably weren't the most accurate. I'm trying to get my hands on a PLM like Mevo or a Skytrak but that might be a while (Christmas ). So I'm hoping that one of the other guys doing this might provide some stats. 

The few sessions that I've had with the GC2 (a bit more accurate) at PGATSS, launch of 12-14°, stock ss of 114 mph, spin of 2k-2200, side spin left or right is almost nothing. These are all pretty good improvements over my previous tracked #'s of 10-12° launch, 110 ss, and spin of 1800. 

[Kenny B]

I don't remember who told me, but 20+ years ago someone said to swing the softest flex you can control.  Made sense at the time.

I used to swing Stiff flex when I took up golf in 1991, but 10 years later Stiff was too stiff and I went to regular.  I just changed to 50g Fifty 2 years ago in my Callaway, but maybe I should have given the 40 a try??    Maybe I will... when my wife isn't looking, I can steal the shaft from her Epic Speed to use in my Epic Max.  

[Rchang]

While the Supercharged didn’t work for me, I started to think slow in the first transition move and have found much better strike and launch with my own gamer. Just need to fix an open clubface

[Bobbers]

Ok, I'm ready to report/comment in this post on taking the O-PH concept to the hybrids.

I use a PXG 0211 4 hybrid, standard loft is 22 degrees.  Stock shaft is the MMT 60 gram in A flex and I normally play the club +1 degree at 23 to get a bit more height/carry on shots.

I put together another of the Bassara Wyvern shafts that was offered by Titleist a few years ago in all their hybrids including the  L flex. 

Had it in the bag yesterday during my round but only had a few chances to use it.  It was ok, but I wanted a chance to take it to the range and hit more than 4 shots with it.  Today was actually near 60, sunny, no wind to speak of for a change so off I went.

Let me say that by the end of my time working with the new shaft I was +15 yards and had 'er dialed down to 21 degrees.  And at 21 degrees getting more height/carry even with the crappy range balls.

On an "apples to apples" basis, i.e. the club at 23 degrees as it normally is, I was seing 7-9 more yards, very nice trajectory and great feel.  The extra yardage was dialing the head down to see if I could get the trajectory I was looking for.

Less than 50 word summation: For me at least, the O-PH concept continues to hold up and I'm going to be using it in driver, fairway woods, and now hybrids.  As always, YMMV.

[Nolan220]

9 hours ago, azstu324 said:

I'm almost convinced that there's an added level of psyche, or awareness that "slowing of the swing" is really important. It's like we subconsciously feel like we shouldn't be swinging too hard with fear of completely losing control or breaking it in half. And the result is a much better tempo and quality of swing. Makes me wonder how much of the magic is the actual shaft.. and how much is what the shaft actually influences us to do in our swing..??

 

I did feel like the tempo was good and didn’t feel like I was over swinging, just felt smooth so There good be something to it ..

[Mhudson111]

On 10/31/2022 at 6:23 PM, Bobbers said:

Your results are going to be fascinating.  I say that because most people playing with the concept are dropping two flexes from their current shaft; you're dropping three.  Of course there are slow swing speed guys such as yours truly who were already at the A flex who are only able, practically speaking, to drop one flex, to L.

I, as many others, will be very interested in what you experience, please keep us posted, ok?

The X flex Diamana allows me to swing pretty vigorously on course (106-107 CHS, usually get maybe 260 carry, lots of fairways in Phoenix are harder except after overseeding, so get maybe another 10-15 yards roll).

I developed sudden lower back issues about 10 years ago, so am always looking for same/more distance easier swing.  That is what intrigued me about DIY Otto-phlex.  I’m always having to tell myself “ it’s technique/sequence, stop trying to swing so hard”.  So the motivation to avoid further injury is what allows me to transition into a Otto-phlex type swing easier than someone looking to just pick up yards.  My long term ability to play depends on it.

 I was somewhat skeptical waggling club on my initial 9 hole trial, but as others have said, Grafalloy Prolaunch Blue 45 A produces surprisingly accurate start line and lateral dispersion.   Must be stable.  6 of my 7 drives (forgot my GPS watch so eyeballing) were either even or 10 yards ahead of where I usually am (albeit 1 hook which isn’t unusual), and other drive must have rolled in water on par 5 at end of fairway because we couldn’t find it on straight drive (#15 at Ken Macdonald, maybe @azstu324knows that one).  
 

So I consider the experiment on a 1/2 round sample size a success.  The 75-80% /  concentrate on sequencing swing seems to works like others have found.  Thanks everyone that blazed trail before me.

 I did put a light R flex (1-2 flexes down) Evenflow Riptide Blue in my 5 wood but getting ballooning, high spin , short shots.  Will have to evaluate what’s going on, but that won’t affect my driver experience.

 

[peakation]

15 hours ago, cnosil said:

Interesting thought,  so then the question would be why are people seeing more distance?  Distance is created by faster swings or  better contact location.   Maybe it is the perceived better control results in better sequencing  that produces tasters speeds.   Or that people have better grip pressure?  People have also reported higher ball flight; maybe people just hit the ball too low.   
 

has anyone done a LM based test to compare numbers?  I don’t recall seeing anyone do that type of evaluation?

I am having another go with indoor Trackman tonight. Will report back comparing Tensei AV Stiff vs PLB A. Will also remove the worst outliers to get "better" data to compare.

Also found out my SW-measurement was a little off and my PLB A was at C8.4, so I must find a way to add 4 grams to the head. Still waiting for my "ebay weights".

[Bobbers]

7 hours ago, Mhudson111 said:

The X flex Diamana allows me to swing pretty vigorously on course (106-107 CHS, usually get maybe 260 carry, lots of fairways in Phoenix are harder except after overseeding, so get maybe another 10-15 yards roll).

I developed sudden lower back issues about 10 years ago, so am always looking for same/more distance easier swing.  That is what intrigued me about DIY Otto-phlex.  I’m always having to tell myself “ it’s technique/sequence, stop trying to swing so hard”.  So the motivation to avoid further injury is what allows me to transition into a Otto-phlex type swing easier than someone looking to just pick up yards.  My long term ability to play depends on it.

 I was somewhat skeptical waggling club on my initial 9 hole trial, but as others have said, Grafalloy Prolaunch Blue 45 A produces surprisingly accurate start line and lateral dispersion.   Must be stable.  6 of my 7 drives (forgot my GPS watch so eyeballing) were either even or 10 yards ahead of where I usually am (albeit 1 hook which isn’t unusual), and other drive must have rolled in water on par 5 at end of fairway because we couldn’t find it on straight drive (#15 at Ken Macdonald, maybe @azstu324knows that one).  
 

So I consider the experiment on a 1/2 round sample size a success.  The 75-80% /  concentrate on sequencing swing seems to works like others have found.  Thanks everyone that blazed trail before me.

 I did put a light R flex (1-2 flexes down) Evenflow Riptide Blue in my 5 wood but getting ballooning, high spin , short shots.  Will have to evaluate what’s going on, but that won’t affect my driver experience.

 

The good news is that the PLB is a butt trim only shaft so, if you want to, you can easily create the same shaft for your 5 wood.

[GolfSpy TCB]

4 hours ago, peakation said:

I am having another go with indoor Trackman tonight. Will report back comparing Tensei AV Stiff vs PLB A. Will also remove the worst outliers to get "better" data to compare.

Also found out my SW-measurement was a little off and my PLB A was at C8.4, so I must find a way to add 4 grams to the head. Still waiting for my "ebay weights".

I liked the way my club swung at C-8 (see previous post as I lost the lead tape mid round...) very balanced and easy to get the club square through the ball - but noticed a distance difference (was ~10 yards shorter than with the added 8g in the small sample size of a portion of a 9 hole round).  I'm not quite clear on the benefits of the D0 over say D2 are...  I can only assume the lighter swing weight keeps the shaft from becoming unstable flex wise through the swing... but as also outlined by another member in this thread... less mass means less distance... so there is a sweet spot somewhere - I guess the basis of this thread says that is D0-D1.  But I had really good results at D2 (good stability and a couple 4 more grams of mass in the head).  There is a large part of me that says... if I can control the club head at D2 - I will have better results with distance based on the increased mass - so I should stay with that.  

Another consideration now... I threw my name in the hat for the Off Season Speed Challenge so if (I mean "when") I'm successful at increasing my swing speed, what will that do to the results of this O-PH setup? Maybe I will need to move into a 'senior' flex to keep up with all that increased speed I will be seeing  

[Duckbutter]

Sorry but this didn’t give me any added distance

[peakation]

1 minute ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

I liked the way my club swung at C-8 (see previous post as I lost the lead tape mid round...) very balanced and easy to get the club square through the ball - but noticed a distance difference (was ~10 yards shorter than with the added 8g in the small sample size of a portion of a 9 hole round).  I'm not quite clear on the benefits of the D0 over say D2 are...  I can only assume the lighter swing weight keeps the shaft from becoming unstable flex wise through the swing... but as also outlined by another member in this thread... less mass means less distance... so there is a sweet spot somewhere - I guess the basis of this thread says that is D0-D1.  But I had really good results at D2 (good stability and a couple 4 more grams of mass in the head).  There is a large part of me that says... if I can control the club head at D2 - I will have better results with distance based on the increased mass - so I should stay with that.  

Another consideration now... I threw my name in the hat for the Off Season Speed Challenge so if (I mean "when") I'm successful at increasing my swing speed, what will that do to the results of this O-PH setup? Maybe I will need to move into a 'senior' flex to keep up with all that increased speed I will be seeing  

Yours truly mentioned ball speed related to head weight

My initial test resulted in a more open club face with PLB A, and an less optimal smash factor. The CHS gains didn't result in more distance. I don't know why I left the club face open, but I want to test if the club head was too light.

[ejgaudette]

15 minutes ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

I liked the way my club swung at C-8 (see previous post as I lost the lead tape mid round...) very balanced and easy to get the club square through the ball - but noticed a distance difference (was ~10 yards shorter than with the added 8g in the small sample size of a portion of a 9 hole round).  I'm not quite clear on the benefits of the D0 over say D2 are...  I can only assume the lighter swing weight keeps the shaft from becoming unstable flex wise through the swing... but as also outlined by another member in this thread... less mass means less distance... so there is a sweet spot somewhere - I guess the basis of this thread says that is D0-D1.  But I had really good results at D2 (good stability and a couple 4 more grams of mass in the head).  There is a large part of me that says... if I can control the club head at D2 - I will have better results with distance based on the increased mass - so I should stay with that.  

Another consideration now... I threw my name in the hat for the Off Season Speed Challenge so if (I mean "when") I'm successful at increasing my swing speed, what will that do to the results of this O-PH setup? Maybe I will need to move into a 'senior' flex to keep up with all that increased speed I will be seeing  

Gonna need to go up a flex once your swinging super fast next spring

[GolfSpy TCB]

5 minutes ago, peakation said:

Yours truly mentioned ball speed related to head weight

My initial test resulted in a more open club face with PLB A, and an less optimal smash factor. The CHS gains didn't result in more distance. I don't know why I left the club face open, but I want to test if the club head was too light.

Sorry for not giving you proper credit peakation!    It was a great post that came back into my head as I heard the zing sound of the weight flying off during one of my drives... haha.  But it makes a lot of sense... just finding that sweet spot between lower mass and increased club head speed to maximize distance is the trick.  

Looking forward to more of your findings (and giving you proper credit going forward!!)

[azstu324]

10 hours ago, Mhudson111 said:

(#15 at Ken Macdonald, maybe @azstu324knows that one).  

Man it's been a hot minute since I've played Ken McD. If it's the hole I'm thinking of though, there's water all down the right, a grove of trees way down on the left, water just past the trees, and the driving range is like just off the green? That's kind of their quintessential F-U hole if it's what I'm thinking about. 

[bgolfing]

Any thoughts on this:

https://www.golfworks.com/ust-mamiya-dhi-series-graphite-wood-shaft/p/us0082/

 

Also, where are you finding heads? I would think that is the most $$$ of the experiment

[azstu324]

16 minutes ago, bgolfing said:

Any thoughts on this:

https://www.golfworks.com/ust-mamiya-dhi-series-graphite-wood-shaft/p/us0082/

 

Also, where are you finding heads? I would think that is the most $$$ of the experiment

@bgolfing I looked at that option when perusing the GW catalogue. A couple of issues with this one are that the total gram weight is too heavy for most with this particular experiment. You would need to be playing 80g++ shaft in your current setup for this shaft to work. 

Also, the torque is just too high and might result in too much torsional (open/closed) flexing. I'm also just quoting this based on the "Theory" of how the OttoPhlex is supposed to work.

The price point where the OttoPhlex options starts is around the $60 mark. You could take a chance on the Maltby Pro UL for $40. Those are actually really great shafts, but again, I question the high torque. Hell, for all I know, torque could be less significant than I presume it is so it may be worth a shot.. then again you could completely blow $40 on a shaft that won't work for this and kick yourself for not spending the extra $20.  

 

[azstu324]

1 hour ago, Duckbutter said:

Sorry but this didn’t give me any added distance

Would you mind sharing your setup? And results? For some guys, it was a little bit of trial and error, and learning from others before either finding a setting that works, or ditching the idea. 

[BMart519]

8 hours ago, peakation said:

I am having another go with indoor Trackman tonight. Will report back comparing Tensei AV Stiff vs PLB A. Will also remove the worst outliers to get "better" data to compare.

Also found out my SW-measurement was a little off and my PLB A was at C8.4, so I must find a way to add 4 grams to the head. Still waiting for my "ebay weights".

Unless you mulligan you worst misses on the course, there's an argument to made that the overall performance of both should be compared. If the misses are bigger with one setup, eliminating those will probably benefit your score more than 10 yards of added distance on good strikes. 

[Bobbers]

7 hours ago, azstu324 said:

@bgolfing I looked at that option when perusing the GW catalogue. A couple of issues with this one are that the total gram weight is too heavy for most with this particular experiment. You would need to be playing 80g++ shaft in your current setup for this shaft to work. 

Also, the torque is just too high and might result in too much torsional (open/closed) flexing. I'm also just quoting this based on the "Theory" of how the OttoPhlex is supposed to work.

The price point where the OttoPhlex options starts is around the $60 mark. You could take a chance on the Maltby Pro UL for $40. Those are actually really great shafts, but again, I question the high torque. Hell, for all I know, torque could be less significant than I presume it is so it may be worth a shot.. then again you could completely blow $40 on a shaft that won't work for this and kick yourself for not spending the extra $20.  

 

If you're going to look at Golfworks for shafts might I suggest looking for something that has a "playability factor" or whatever it is they call it these days that's identical to the ProLaunch Blue.  What I'm referring to is that 4 character code, like "2B3M".

I say that because a couple of us have tried the ProLaunch "Supercharged" and it's not worked out very well.  The ProLaunch Blue, on the other hand, has worked very well for almost everyone that's tried it as part of this experiment.

As to heads?  Speaking only for myself, my budget doesn't allow me to buy one or two of the latest and greatest drivers every year.  And, given I'm not the best golfer in the world, it's doubtful I'd see the benefits those  new drivers tout.  So I scrounge around and pick up very serviceable, very nice heads that might be a year, two, or three years old.  As we all have experienced, most golf equipment depreciates pretty quickly, making those heads a lot more affordable in  not too long a time from their introduction.

That's one member's view, take it for what it's worth and have fun.

[Bobbers]

8 hours ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

I liked the way my club swung at C-8 (see previous post as I lost the lead tape mid round...) very balanced and easy to get the club square through the ball - but noticed a distance difference (was ~10 yards shorter than with the added 8g in the small sample size of a portion of a 9 hole round).  I'm not quite clear on the benefits of the D0 over say D2 are...  I can only assume the lighter swing weight keeps the shaft from becoming unstable flex wise through the swing... but as also outlined by another member in this thread... less mass means less distance... so there is a sweet spot somewhere - I guess the basis of this thread says that is D0-D1.  But I had really good results at D2 (good stability and a couple 4 more grams of mass in the head).  There is a large part of me that says... if I can control the club head at D2 - I will have better results with distance based on the increased mass - so I should stay with that.  

Another consideration now... I threw my name in the hat for the Off Season Speed Challenge so if (I mean "when") I'm successful at increasing my swing speed, what will that do to the results of this O-PH setup? Maybe I will need to move into a 'senior' flex to keep up with all that increased speed I will be seeing  

I do believe, based on years of experimenting with clubs in general, that there are "Goldilocks" situations that occur more often than we might realize.  Can the driver to too light in terms of swing weight and/or head weight?  Yes, it can.  Alternately I can promise you I can make your driver so heavy in terms of head weight that you'll never be able to effectively get it through the hitting zone.  So yeah, I'm very much in the "D0-D1 is the hard target to make the O-PH work effectively" camp.

[Mhudson111]

12 hours ago, bgolfing said:

Any thoughts on this:

https://www.golfworks.com/ust-mamiya-dhi-series-graphite-wood-shaft/p/us0082/

 

Also, where are you finding heads? I would think that is the most $$$ of the experiment

I just did experimental shafts with my gamer head.  So no additional $.  That way if it works, still playing the head I know.  If it doesn’t work, one adapter screw loosen and I’m back to my gamer shaft.

I did invest $8.99 at Billy Bobs for a couple different head weights to swing weight, but can also use those regardless of shaft

[peakation]

I tried a lot of different combos yesterday. My first thought is I don't think I am that sensitive to shaft flex. I didn't find any significant extra CHS with the lighter PLB A shaft as I did the first time around. What I did find was I can't have too low Swing Weight. I am struggling to feel the club head if its to light. I put the 16 g back weight back in (probably around SW D6.0) and went up 3-4 mph ball speed. I was fighting to reach 150 mph BS and losing it right, and now I was cruising it >152 fairly straight. At the end I managed to fix my out to in Club Path but then I was too exhausted to try the stiff shaft once more. 

Out of the three combos I measured (diff shaft flex and CHW), they had the exact same avg carry of 224 meters (245 yards), and I only removed the 30 yard miss hits (which were evenly distributed). But the longest was with PLB A at 238 m (260 yards), 4 meters longer than current stiff gamer. 

I am not giving up on this experiment, but I need to dial in my SW better (waiting on those weights...). Will keep you posted.

Edited November 3, 2022 by peakation

[PACK7483]

Was working close to a Golf Galaxy today, and picked up a senior flex PLB.  Hopefully have time to put a PXG adapter on it tomorrow, and give it a whirl. What length are most playing at?  Is 44 inches too short for this to work?  Seems like most go 45.5-46?..

[peakation]

8 hours ago, PACK7483 said:

Was working close to a Golf Galaxy today, and picked up a senior flex PLB.  Hopefully have time to put a PXG adapter on it tomorrow, and give it a whirl. What length are most playing at?  Is 44 inches too short for this to work?  Seems like most go 45.5-46?..

I would start out at 46 (or longer). There is speed gain in a longer shaft as well. But it may be harder to get the swing weight dialed in with a longer shaft. Depends on your head really and what kind of customization is possible.

[Bobbers]

12 hours ago, PACK7483 said:

Was working close to a Golf Galaxy today, and picked up a senior flex PLB.  Hopefully have time to put a PXG adapter on it tomorrow, and give it a whirl. What length are most playing at?  Is 44 inches too short for this to work?  Seems like most go 45.5-46?..

Yes, 45.5-46 is the target length with a D0-D1 swing weight.  Good luck and please let  us know how it goes.

[azstu324]

15 hours ago, PACK7483 said:

Was working close to a Golf Galaxy today, and picked up a senior flex PLB.  Hopefully have time to put a PXG adapter on it tomorrow, and give it a whirl. What length are most playing at?  Is 44 inches too short for this to work?  Seems like most go 45.5-46?..

Like the 2 others have said, start at the max length you think you feel comfortable with and work backwards from there. IMO anything shorter than 45" and you're getting into diminishing returns land. It's also a matter of what's more important.. distance or control. I might have sacrificed 5-10 extra yards by going 45" but picked up control that I was more interested in.. I still earned a gain of about 10+ yds extra distance but with a new found confidence that I'm really enjoying. 

Please keep us posted on what you end up with!