Mandatory tee boxes?

[Stuka44]

Ok I'll bite.... I'm not sure what kind of 15 handicaps you are playing with(I am one) but the length of the course  for me doesn't impact the pace I play at one bit.  I get to my ball look at my watch for  how far the green is away, pull the appropriate club and hit it.   If the  15 and sub handicaps you are playing with need a whole lot of extra time to mull over that their 2nd shot 3 wood, or two hybrid is going to come down a little further away from the hole on a par 5, that was unreachable in two anyways,  or maybe not make the green on a long par 4 then I feel sorry for you. I hit a few more chips likely, as I will miss a few more of the 6 I normally expect to hit in a round.  I'm not sure how actually striking 10 more shots in a round is slowing them down so much.  Ok they cant reach a par 4.  You drop them off at their ball short of the green while you are parking the cart, and walking up to your ball on the green or off,  they certainly should have struck their ball already and be in the process of walking up and marking it  before you even stop the cart.  From where their ball is they should know what club they are going to hit, you make a little mental evaluation of chipping onto up slope down slope ( maybe), check the distance,  and you strike the ball.  All done before you are ready to hit yours.

[vandyland]

Please let me know if I missed any "I actually score better from farther back" posts because those are my personal favorite . That argument has never made sense to me unless the person in question is HELL-BENT on hitting driver off every tee. 

[DaveP043]

26 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Please let me know if I missed any "I actually score better from farther back" posts because those are my personal favorite . That argument has never made sense to me unless the person in question is HELL-BENT on hitting driver off every tee. 

I presume you did read the one that said "All of that actual data is irrelevant, my personal experience is more telling".

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, stuka44 said:

Ok I'll bite.... I'm not sure what kind of 15 handicaps you are playing with(I am one) but the length of the course  for me doesn't impact the pace I play at one bit.  I get to my ball look at my watch for  how far the green is away, pull the appropriate club and hit it.   If the  15 and sub handicaps you are playing with need a whole lot of extra time to mull over that their 2nd shot 3 wood, or two hybrid is going to come down a little further away from the hole on a par 5, that was unreachable in two anyways,  or maybe not make the green on a long par 4 then I feel sorry for you. I hit a few more chips likely, as I will miss a few more of the 6 I normally expect to hit in a round.  I'm not sure how actually striking 10 more shots in a round is slowing them down so much.  Ok they cant reach a par 4.  You drop them off at their ball short of the green while you are parking the cart, and walking up to your ball on the green or off,  they certainly should have struck their ball already and be in the process of walking up and marking it  before you even stop the cart.  From where their ball is they should know what club they are going to hit, you make a little mental evaluation of chipping onto up slope down slope ( maybe), check the distance,  and you strike the ball.  All done before you are ready to hit yours.

When a 15 handicap is making triple bogeys on par 5s, doubles worse on par 4s and not reaching greens on par 3s the pace of play slows down. Those with decent driver games aren’t as good with the short game that’s why they are 15s and are going to still have longer shots into or 4s and struggle on par 5s with trouble that weren’t in play from a closer tee now are. Those with weak tee games and average short game are going to struggle hitting fairways and this going to have difficulty hitting their seconds shots from the rough and are going to take longer to get to the green. How you don’t understand this is beyond me

[Siamese Moose]

I played in Florida with a large group once at Hammock Beach. One of the guys walked into the pro shop, and said in a smart alecky way, "What's the course record, and where's the first tee?" About five guys behind the counter answered in unison, "The starters' over there, FOUR HOURS!"

[Tom the Golf Nut]

1 hour ago, Siamese Moose said:

I played in Florida with a large group once at Hammock Beach. One of the guys walked into the pro shop, and said in a smart alecky way, "What's the course record, and where's the first tee?" About five guys behind the counter answered in unison, "The starters' over there, FOUR HOURS!"

Now that was just beautiful. 

[chisag]

... I am not a Mathematician but I did play a Calculus Professor in a Pilot Film and during my research for the role I discovered an equation: it takes longer to hit 3 or 4 shots to reach the green than reaching the green in 2 shots. And this may be an advanced formula for those of you that are not Mathematicians but 4 x 2 = 8 and here is where the Physics Degree helps but 4 x 3/4 = 12/16.  And adding to the difficulty for a lay person to comprehend and you will just have to trust me but 12/16 is a larger number than 8. Attempting to ascertain distance and execute a complicated physical and for many an equally complicated mental task, takes longer to accomplish in 12/16 attempts than the same task executed in 8 attempts.

... If this is too confusing just watch Good Will Hunting or go to any golf course in the world and join some players teeing off from a distance not commensurate with their ability to advance the ball forward accurately and it should become much clearer.   

[silver & black]

On 12/28/2022 at 10:11 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

The easiest way to improve pace of play especially at public courses is to 1) make the pace of play policy known to each golfer. This can be done with a posting in the pro shop and by the starter before each group goes out to the first tee. 2) have marshalls/rangers on staff who understand golf and pace play and where bottlenecks can occur on the course  3) enforce the pace of play policy.

This works because I play several courses that all do it and there is rarely and issue of pace of play. 

Totally agree with this! I have said many times.... and suggested at my home course that rulkes for pace of play be posted in the clubhouse, on the door entering the clubhouse and at #1 and  #10 tee boxes. Three minutes to look for a ball, then throw one down and continue. On busy days on public/muni courses, pick your ball up after 4 attempts to get on the green after tee shot. Make it known that you will be expected to follow these rules or you will be asked to leave. 4 man scrambles should not be allowed unless in a scramble format outing.... they hold up the rest of the course because they talk about every shot, run around looking at every shot to see which one is best, then debate another 5 minutes about it...lol. By the time they are done, it has taken 15 minutes to play the hole.

There is never any good reason for a round to last longer than 4 - 4.5 hours. 

 

That solved nothing.... but I feel better! 

[silver & black]

On 12/28/2022 at 12:21 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

One of the problems is that courses don’t want to upset their customers so they don’t enforce any policy or establish one. Most golfers also don’t think they are slow so when someone tells them they are, they get upset.

This describes my home course to a tee. No time between groups... just hit when you think you won't reach the group ahead of you. Load as many people on the course as possible. Don't bother making sure no one is making the turn before sending a group off the back because they just want to play 9 holes. No amount of complaints seems to matter at all. It gets worse every year...lol.

[rkj427]

2 hours ago, silver & black said:

Totally agree with this! I have said many times.... and suggested at my home course that rulkes for pace of play be posted in the clubhouse, on the door entering the clubhouse and at #1 and  #10 tee boxes. Three minutes to look for a ball, then throw one down and continue. On busy days on public/muni courses, pick your ball up after 4 attempts to get on the green after tee shot. Make it known that you will be expected to follow these rules or you will be asked to leave. 4 man scrambles should not be allowed unless in a scramble format outing.... they hold up the rest of the course because they talk about every shot, run around looking at every shot to see which one is best, then debate another 5 minutes about it...lol. By the time they are done, it has taken 15 minutes to play the hole.

There is never any good reason for a round to last longer than 4 - 4.5 hours. 

 

That solved nothing.... but I feel better! 

 

2 hours ago, silver & black said:

This describes my home course to a tee. No time between groups... just hit when you think you won't reach the group ahead of you. Load as many people on the course as possible. Don't bother making sure no one is making the turn before sending a group off the back because they just want to play 9 holes. No amount of complaints seems to matter at all. It gets worse every year...lol.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm not only in Ohio but a few other states I played in this year as well.

Surprised or maybe I missed where it, but no one has mentioned those who take mulligans after duffing their tee shots while a line of groups is behind them, or waiting for the group in front to clear, when they possibly can't reach them on their best day or best shot ever.

If people would play courses from the appropriate tees for the length of their shots, not only would it speed up play, but it would also increase their enjoyment of the game, or at least limit the frustration they may have if playing poorly.

[chisag]

1 minute ago, rkj427 said:

 

Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm not only in Ohio but a few other states I played in this year as well.

Surprised or maybe I missed where it, but no one has mentioned those who take mulligans after duffing their tee shots while a line of groups is behind them, or waiting for the group in front to clear, when they possibly can't reach them on their best day or best shot ever.

If people would play courses from the appropriate tees for the length of their shots, not only would it speed up play, but it would also increase their enjoyment of the game, or at least limit the frustration they may have if playing poorly.

 

 

... While not 100% accurate, most of the time those playing the appropriate tees for their ability play ready golf or at least know how to keep pace. Those playing tees beyond their ability often do not and have a clue how to keep pace and worst, just don't seem too care. My good friend from Tampa Bay just visited me here in Phoenix for 14 days and we played 12 of them. Most rounds were around 4:00 - 4:15 hours but several of them were closer to 5. All of those were slow players on the wrong tees backing up the course behind them. 

... One of my pet peeves is a proper pace of play should have you waiting no more than a few minutes on the tee and in the fairway. But the slow groups never have to wait because they always have a clear hole in front of them. 

[DaveP043]

48 minutes ago, chisag said:

While not 100% accurate, most of the time those playing the appropriate tees for their ability play ready golf or at least know how to keep pace. Those playing tees beyond their ability often do not and have a clue how to keep pace and worst, just don't seem too care

This seems so incredibly logical to me that it SHOULD go without saying.  Knowledgeable people tend to make sound judgements in most of what they do, so they choose to play appropriate tees, and choose to play in a timely manner.  Players who don't choose reasonable tees are more also likely to make poor choices that slow their play.  Encouraging players to make the first good choice, the correct tees, can't solve all slow play issues, but it can help a little.

[chisag]

10 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This seems so incredibly logical to me that it SHOULD go without saying.  Knowledgeable people tend to make sound judgements in most of what they do, so they choose to play appropriate tees, and choose to play in a timely manner.  Players who don't choose reasonable tees are more also likely to make poor choices that slow their play.  Encouraging players to make the first good choice, the correct tees, can't solve all slow play issues, but it can help a little.

 

... Yup "should" and the second part of the equation is some people are just selfish, inconsiderate and simply don't care about anyone else on the course.  

[TEC71]

I took my son to a US Kids parent-child golf camp a few years back. Before giving us an afternoon to play the course, they gave us a quick talk on their system and had us all go to the range and hit a few drives to figure out the best tees to play from. It seemed to work pretty well, although I’m conservative, was sort of between tees, and chose to “round down” instead of playing the longer tees. Pro caught up to us about halfway through the first nine, watched me play a couple holes, and suggested I think about moving back a tee as he drove off.

http://www.longleafteesystem.com/#our-purpose

 

[Esg777]

i have no problem with the Tee box recommendation but you can make your own decision of where you want to play.  For instance I play Pound Ridge golf course in NY a Pete Dye course, which is hard.  The recommended tee box is 6261 and I play that and have a very hard time with the course.  At that course when I start playing consistently in 80's i will move back a tee box.  Golf is suppose to be fun, so why make it harder on yourself 

 

[Siamese Moose]

I'm usually pretty good at choosing the correct tees to play. Besides looking at yardage I'll factor in the rating and slope. However, I'd hate to be told which tee to play. Let me make my judgement. An additional factor for me on occasion, my instructor (really should be called my "coach") wants me, once or twice a year, to move back a box or two, way out of my comfort zone, and play there, as well as moving way up a time or two. When I do this I am hyper-aware of pace, and usually try to do it at a non-crowded time (didn't want to say a "slow" time). What was probably my best round ever was beating the course rating once (shot 75 with a 75.6 rating, though 73 is my lowest score). That was particularly fun, as I had a tee time for one very early, but the counter guy asked me if I would join a threesome of college players. I let them know what I was doing and why, and that I was a 10 handicap, and they were cool with it, created a small game and they gave me 10 strokes. I beat one scratch, tied one, and lost to the third guy by 2. I refused to take their cash: poor college kids vs comfortable retiree!

[vandyland]

Let's just get this out in the open, tour players should be playing from 8,000+ yds per this chart. Many tour players carry the ball 300+, easily. For the record, I appreciate the analysis and lengths that the Longleaf system goes to in order to arrive at the following calc, I just don't agree with it:

I would technically be an "7" on this chart and I would never voluntarily play from 6,600 yds+. I went into this on golfwrx but I am compelled to repost it here.....

I just want to point out a very small (and possibly cherry picked) example from this past New Year's break. The golf channel was showing re-runs of final rounds and I happened to see the Rocket Mortgage where Cantlay was playing the 561 yd par 5 and he hit Driver (340 yd) and then 7 IRON (from like 210) over the green. To me, Cantlay is long but not an out and out bomber (he was 40th in driving distance last season). So I had to keep watching and then looking into the shotlink data and this thread came up in my mind.

Going through the shotlink data on his final round he had the following distances left into par 4s and 5s:

Hole 1: 75 yds
Hole 2: 141 yds
Hole 3: 84 yds
Hole 4 (par 5): 263 yds
Hole 6: 163 yds
Hole 7 (par 5): 207 yds (this was the 7 iron he hit over the green)
Hole 8: 146 yds
Hole 10: 121 yds
Hole 12: 178 yds
Hole 13: 38 yds
Hole 14 (par 5): 204 yds
Hole 16: 164 yds
Hole 17 (par 5): 229 yds
Hole 18: 176 yds

Average Distance into a par 4 is 128.6 yds (which I would assume is a gap wedge if his 7 iron goes 200 freaking yards). Average distance into a par 5 was 225 yds which is probably a 6 iron, maybe a 5 iron. Average distance for par 3s was 180 yds which I would guess is an 8 iron? 

So, what is the point? If part of the enjoyment of golf is "hitting every club in your bag" or "not having a bunch of wedges into the green" then fine, so be it. Just know that on the best tour in the world we are not holding elite players to that standard at the average tour event. So I would propose this math as a "CANTLAY TEST" rather than these ludicrous 5 iron distance * 36 or Driver distance * 25, that is if you want the same challenge as a routine PGA tour stop. Few will ever do this, most everyone will say this is WAY too short but, to me at least, it makes some sense....

Par 3s --> (AVERAGE 8 IRON CARRY) * 4 = XXX yds
Par 4s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE GAP WEDGE CARRY DISTANCE) ] * 10 = X,XXX yds
Par 5s --> [ (AVERAGE DRIVING DISTANCE) + (AVERAGE 5 IRON CARRY DISTANCE) * 4 = X,XXX yds

So for me that is: 

So, what is your "Cantlay Calc" and is it significantly shorter, longer or near the same as what you play on a regular basis?

Edited January 4, 2023 by vandyland

[GolfSpy TCB]

16 minutes ago, vandyland said:

So for me that is: 

Here is mine.  I play the "White" tees at my course which are 6546 yards.  I guess I should be playing from the Reds (5666).

 

[vandyland]

5 minutes ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

I guess I should be playing from the Reds (5666).

I want to very clear that I am not telling anyone where they "should" play from as this is a game and everyone can enjoy it however they like. I just like to stir the pot and/or overanalyze everything .  This is more for message board fodder but I do, in fact, play my local muni at 6,000 yds so I at least practice what I preach, the teeing options at the golf course I play often are:

Tips: 6,899 yds [hell no]
Blue: 6,481 yds [possible but not fun]
White: 6,058 yds (almost goldilocks distance for me and what I usually play)
Yellow: 5,438 yds [honestly more likely to play from this distance than Blue]
Red: 4,904 yds [in the winter I will usually play the reds at least once]

Edited January 4, 2023 by vandyland

[GolfSpy TCB]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

want to very clear that I am not telling anyone where they "should" play from as this is a game and everyone can enjoy it however they like. I just like to stir the pot and/or overanalyze everything . 

Oh, I didn't take it that way Vandy... it was a fun exercise.  Especially the part obout being honest with myself on my average distances.   

I love employing paralysis by analysis on my game haha. 

I definitely feel my limits at my White tee yardage. lots of long irons, hybrids and fairway woods in my shot tally in each round.  So the Cantlay Calc makes a lot of sense to me.  

Good forum fodder Vandy!

[chisag]

3 hours ago, Golfspy_TCB said:

Here is mine.  I play the "White" tees at my course which are 6546 yards.  I guess I should be playing from the Reds (5666).

 

 

... So many factors that are different for each player. Ideally, I want a combination of fun holes where I am hitting driver short iron and tough holes where I am hitting driver hybrid/long irons with plenty of average holes were I am hitting driver and 9-6 iron. Some long par 3'd and some short par 3's. Par 5's I can reach in two and par 5's I need 3 solid shots. Throw in a par 4 or two that can be drivable with a high risk reward but laying up with an iron off the tee leaves a wedge at most and a scoring opportunity. 

... More likely than not this would involve combo tees, either on the scorecard or selected by the individual. Someone that doesn't really know where their shots are going on any given day may prefer a shorter layout and those with plenty of length may prefer longer. For non competition rounds, play where ever it gives you the best combination of a challenge and fun.

... At the moment we have had a ton of rain which is crazy rare for Phoenix and fairways are soft, producing mud balls on almost every drive. I have moved up a tee box on the 4 longest holes and when normal winter conditions return with hard, fast British Open like fairways I will move back on those 4 holes and my drives should end up in about the same place. 

[Stuka44]

  

18 hours ago, vandyland said:

Few will ever do this, most everyone will say this is WAY too short but, to me at least, it makes some sense...

 I believe you are 100% right.   The length of public courses, and the distances the weekend golfer are suggested to play from(at all levels) are too closely and wrongly influenced by the pro game. The one course I play its measured out at 6000 yards.  It has 4 par 4's over 400 yards, generally speaking depending on my drive these at an absolute minimum require 5, 4 iron, or 2H to reach.  Crap! on  2 of them sometimes I have to lay up because they are fronted by ponds 15 yards wide, and par 5's(only 2, on Par 70) which are 530 yards long.  Absolutely unreachable in 2.

So a pro gets approaches of 4 (SW, GW) on the 4's, and maybe a 6 or 7 iron on the 5's to reach in 2.  Throw in the 4 par' 3's,   and he gets 7I, 2-Pw's, and a gap wedge, compared to my 2H, 5I, 6I, 7I. Now we have 8 holes left, 4 of those are reachable  by him with less than driver off the tee, 268, 304, 248, 265, likely with 3- 4 or 5 irons, and a hybrid maybe.  Oh and one of the 4 holes left is a 391 yard par 4..

I believe to hit comparable clubs into the greens like me, a pro would have to play a layout of 10,000-12,000 yards. In looking at the same scorecard and very quick evaluation I believe playing the front tees at about 4880 yards will put many more comparable clubs in my hand for approach shots.  Now I get it nobody is forcing me to not play from the front tees, which would be a comparable "pro" round for me.  I guess my point is that on the whole everyone involved with golf, is failing to address this discrepancy.  This is intentional! The supporters of golf, manufacturers and all market longer drivers, fairway woods, balls, speed trainers.  Nobody tells the 15-25 handicap, "guess what" the pro isn't hitting a new improved 3 wood into this par 5 on his 2nd shot shot, which by the way "you Mr. 20 handicap will never reach unless you have a hurricane behind you".  The ONLY  way you will ever get there in 2 shots, like a pro is to move up and play the par 5 from 390-420 yards depending on your skill.

Until this is addressed and playing courses much shorter for every skill level, especially  when courses are busy, and the stigma is removed from "what length you are playing the course from,  pace of play will never really improve.

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by stuka44

[vandyland]

8 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

I believe you are 100% right.   The length of public courses, and the distances the weekend golfer are suggested to play from(at all levels) are too closely and wrongly influenced by the pro game.

Thank you for that. This is not intended to be a boast but I FREQUENTLY get people saying "you are too good to play from that close" or "you hit it WAY too far to play from there" or even "How is that fun?" 

To me, I think this is some combination of what you mentioned above, some male ego (though I think I have some ego too because I don't want to struggle playing from way back so it goes both way) and there is an unspoken thing where if I, as 5-6 HDCP, don't feel comfortable playing from where my playing partners (who are often 15-20 HDCPs) then they are also playing from the wrong tees. Not sure if I worded that in a coherent way but basically if I am significantly better than someone and ALSO playing two tees in front of them there is a bit of shaming (not intentional) that may be felt. Personally, I don't really care unless they start getting pissed at me or themselves or are taking forever (this does happen from time to time). I don't puff my chest out or try to evangelize like I am doing in this thread currently. Basically, enjoy the game but I would encourage anyone who plays the same course all the time (and gets to play often enough to have a "trial" round) to play from a tee or two up and see if it is more fun. Just see. 

[chisag]

10 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

I believe to hit comparable clubs into the greens like me, a pro would have to play a layout of 10,000-12,000 yards. In looking at the same scorecard and very quick evaluation I believe playing the front tees at about 4880 yards will put many more comparable clubs in my hand for approach shots.  Now I get it nobody is forcing me to not play from the front tees, which would be a comparable "pro" round for me.  I guess my point is that on the whole everyone involved with golf, is failing to address this discrepancy. 

 

... To me this is one of the fallacies of tee selection. We should not play a course the same way a Pro does because ... well ... they are Pro's and we are not. They are extraordinary players with physical gifts and practice every day hitting thousands of balls and have earned the right to over power a golf course. Playing a 510yd par 4 is still a little difficult for them compared top a 455yd par 4, but with two good shots they are on the green. And of course the average golfer isn't on the green with two good shots on a 455 yd par 5. Often not on in 3. Nobody will confuse an 18index playing from the forward tees with a Pro. When I hit a good shot on 18 that skirts the bunker at the corner of a slight dogleg, 225yds off the tee with a high lip and uphill so more like a 240yd carry I sometimes imagine what it would be like to carry that bunker by 50yds from the back tees basically using it as a fairway alignment aid and marvel at the Pro's game. Of course that bunker is there  for a purpose, designed to be avoided not flown and one of the problems with a Pro's prodigious length but I digress. 

... The point being the game is difficult so when choosing the right tees it should still be difficult. It should never be easy. The goal is not too difficult but still fun. That said I have no problem at all with someone playing tees shorter than than ideal because it makes them play "similar" to a Pro as far as distances, although it takes away the inherent challenge of the game. As we all know there are different reasons to play golf and while most of us love the challenge and want to be tested every round, some just want to have fun and nothing wrong with that. 

[chisag]

17 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Thank you for that. This is not intended to be a boast but I FREQUENTLY get people saying "you are too good to play from that close" or "you hit it WAY too far to play from there" or even "How is that fun?" 

 

... As in my previous post, playing forward should be anyones option and if fun is your goal, why not? But as an example of why it isn't the best idea for many serious players, the #1 handicap hole at my home courses is a long 435yd par 4. It is uphill off the tee making it play longer, then flattens out for about 25yds then downhill until about 20yds to the green and then back uphill a little. The front of the green does allow a perfect run up shot but from right center it slants toward the deep bunker and balls will consistently roll in. From left center it is not as much of a slant, but still makes the ball turn that way into a little dip often leaving a downhill chip. I usually have anywhere from a hybrid to an occasional 5 iron depending on wind and how well I hit my tee shot. It is a very difficult hole, takes an excellent second shot and par feels like a birdie. 

... Moving up a the box and certainly 2 tee boxes, I can fly the bunker on the left that I land in too often because center right rolls into the desert. Not only can I fly the bunker but from 2 tees forward I can land on the downslope leaving a wedge to the green. Completely changes the hole and takes way the challenge of the #1 handicap rating and turns it into a birdie hole where par would be a disappointment. No thanks. But that is me, and you may feel differently. As long as we are not competing I really don't care where anyone plays as long as they keep pace. I applaud anyone putting in the mental work to figure out which tees or combo tees gives them the best chance to enjoy their round, whether that is for the challenge or just having fun. 

[Stuka44]

9 minutes ago, chisag said:

although it takes away the inherent challenge of the game

I agree, and disagree. Yes at your level of play(based on handicap) I understand your hesitancy to move up. Again according to handicap very few people who play this game, play at your level.  Who says, and why is it the belief that is perpetuated,  and promoted, that the "challenge" of golf needs to be, who hits fewer bad 3 wood, 2H, 4I, 5I shots as opposed to(especially people just learning) have it be the norm, and an acceptable, and expected challenge, to see who can hit the most good 8I, and 9I approach shots because they are playing the course much shorter.  Regardless of what clubs pros hit into holes.

 

34 minutes ago, chisag said:

, playing forward should be anyones option and if fun is your goal, why not?

Again I don't want to speak for anyone else but I think that this statement  is part of the problem I am referring to.  Now I'm sure its not your intention, but this statement and many like it(from many other people and organizations) are one of the reasons nobody plays forward.  If fun is your goal!  That implies that if Vandyland and I go out and want to duel from the 4880 yards I eluded to that somehow our challenging each other to see who can hit  more good shots, which one of us can hit our 7, 8,9, pw, 52 degrees closer to hole and make the putts, is somehow CHEATING  the game, and in doing this we are not participating in REAL golf, and the comments about "Well yeah but you two guys played from 4880 yards", or "but yeah you played from the front tees". Are would, be and could only be interpreted as a slight, or put down.  Comments like these play a large part into dissuading two 25 handicaps from going out and plugging their tees into the ground on the front tee box, where the outcome of their scores, will stand a far better chance of being determined by who hit more average or good shots, as opposed , to playing the "Mens", or "Regular" tees from 6000 yards and the outcome being determined by who had fewer 8's or higher.

I would love it if the golf outing I go on, would adjust everyones handicap for the front tees.  Because at the end of the week, not only would the better golfers still be better, the higher handicaps would have a lot more fun.  Making pars, and having more than 1 or two opportunities for birdie, is what makes the game fun. I'm not sure why so many people are so hesitant to promote this.

[chisag]

6 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Again I don't want to speak for anyone else but I think that this statement  is part of the problem I am referring to.  Now I'm sure its not your intention, but this statement and many like it(from many other people and organizations) are one of the reasons nobody plays forward.  If fun is your goal!  That implies that if Vandyland and I go out and want to duel from the 4880 yards I eluded to that somehow our challenging each other to see who can hit  more good shots, which one of us can hit our 7, 8,9, pw, 52 degrees closer to hole and make the putts, is somehow CHEATING  the game, and in doing this we are not participating in REAL golf, and the comments about "Well yeah but you two guys played from 4880 yards", or "but yeah you played from the front tees". Are would, be and could only be interpreted as a slight, or put down.

 

... You are putting your own interpretation on this. "Challenge" is different for any individual. Certainly different for a scratch player and an 18 index. As someone that has played football, basketball and baseball at very high levels, I find golf much more challenging. Again, it is supposed to be difficult and not necessarily fun. In fact the days when my swing is off and I am grinding out a score it is anything but fun but on the days when everything is clicking, hitting my Super hybrid from 225 onto a par 5 in two and shooting under par is a ton of fun. 

... "Fun" is subjective just as much as "challenge" is subjective. So I was certainly not implying you and Vandy are CHEATING the game and are not playing REAL golf. There is a reason less than 1% of all players can shoot par or under and that reason is golf is very difficult and playing well takes skill, practice, mental determination and a little luck thrown in never hurts. But it was never intended to be "fun". If it was, we wouldn't be required to play from divots and could roll the ball to a good lie even in the rough or scoop out a little sand behind our ball to make hitting from a fairway bunker easier or even tee up a wood in the middle of the fairway ... I could go on and on. That said, if anyone wants to do all the above or play the most forward tees because their goal is to get out in the fish air and have some fun nobody should look down on that.  

[Stuka44]

2 hours ago, chisag said:

Again, it is supposed to be difficult and not necessarily fun.

That is your interpretation of the game. And IMO it is one that is overall "hurtful" to the game.  It is part of what implies, encourages, and shames people into playing golf from a distance they are wholly unfit to play it from.   Golf for those playing for money should be difficult.  I agree that yes anyone can choose to play the game for whatever reason they want.  But it is the generally accepted and perpetuated idea "that golf should be difficult",  which is at the core of almost every facet of golf that people complain about.

Score:  Par is 72.  I shot 110.  Don't worry about that par 72 is a unicorn. You are never really expected to get close to it. Yeah you could quite a bit quicker, get closer to shooting 72, by playing the course from 4880 and not 6000 yards to start.  No you have to hit worm burner after worm burner with your 3w, and 2H from back here and suffer like I did, "or it just won't be the same"... "I don't know why, this is just where we are SUPPOSED play from. 

Difficulty:  No you can't play from the front tees.  Your enjoyment today must come from the fact that you hit two perfect shots on one of the (5) 390 yards plus par fours on this course, and only came up 40 yards short of the green instead of the 125 yards you did on the other 4. ... "What was that?... No you can't play from where you could actually have a chance at reaching those par 4's on your 2nd shot....  Why? Because its supposed to be difficult and not any fun, and you haven't suffered for long enough or spent enough time or money languishing from back here yet.  In other words you don't DESERVE to play from up there.

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by stuka44

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, stuka44 said:

Score:  Par is 72.  I shot 110.  Don't worry about that par 72 is a unicorn. You are never really expected to get close to it. Yeah you could quite a bit quicker, get closer to shooting 72, by playing the course from 4880 and not 6000 yards to start. 

I think that is the key. While I still play short I think, at a minimum, beginners or people that play golf less than 2 times a year should start at the forward tees. Regardless of strength or gender. But I almost never see that. 

For the record, @chisag I get your point as well. There is an inherent challenge to golf that you expect/enjoy/accept and some of that is diminished as you move up. Totally get that. And it is "easier" to play from 5,700 yds vs 6,700 yds, no question. And the road to playing ELITE golf probably requires someone playing from farther back and getting used to hitting longer irons into greens in regulation. I will never be an elite or even competitive golfer. I don't think competitive golf is meant to be fun but if casual golf isn't fun (at least most of the time) what are we doing here? I guess, in my mind, golf is still challenging no matter how far back I play because unfortunately the hole never gets any bigger, hahaha. 

[chisag]

5 hours ago, stuka44 said:

That is your interpretation of the game. And IMO it is one that is overall "hurtful" to the game.  It is part of what implies, encourages, and shames people into playing golf from a distance they are wholly unfit to play it from.   Golf for those playing for money should be difficult.  I agree that yes anyone can choose to play the game for whatever reason they want.  But it is the generally accepted and perpetuated idea "that golf should be difficult",  which is at the core of almost every facet of golf that people complain about.

Score:  Par is 72.  I shot 110.  Don't worry about that par 72 is a unicorn. You are never really expected to get close to it. Yeah you could quite a bit quicker, get closer to shooting 72, by playing the course from 4880 and not 6000 yards to start.  No you have to hit worm burner after worm burner with your 3w, and 2H from back here and suffer like I did, "or it just won't be the same"... "I don't know why, this is just where we are SUPPOSED play from. 

Difficulty:  No you can't play from the front tees.  Your enjoyment today must come from the fact that you hit two perfect shots on one of the (5) 390 yards plus par fours on this course, and only came up 40 yards short of the green instead of the 125 yards you did on the other 4. ... "What was that?... No you can't play from where you could actually have a chance at reaching those par 4's on your 2nd shot....  Why? Because its supposed to be difficult and not any fun, and you haven't suffered for long enough or spent enough time or money languishing from back here yet.  In other words you don't DESERVE to play from up there.

 

 

... You seem to be completely missing the point and either didn't read my reply or understand it:

... "Fun" is subjective just as much as "challenge" is subjective. So I was certainly not implying you and Vandy are CHEATING the game and are not playing REAL golf.  if anyone wants to play the most forward tees because their goal is to get out in the fish air and have some fun nobody should look down on that. 

... I have no idea why you replied to me with "implies, encourages, and shames people into playing golf from a distance they are wholly unfit to play it from." When I have never said or implied that and certainly don't believe it. But people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. I am not trying to continue an "argument" especially when I agree with you.   People should play how they want adhering to the rules or some of the rules or none of the rules and they should play from whatever tee box they want as well. I could care less if someone joins our group and plays the most forward tees regardless of their ability to play further back. There is no supposed to or deserve with any of my playing partners when someone joins us and we have all played from 4 different tee boxes on more than a few occasions.